Does Sola Fide need to be embraced to be saved?

[themuzicman]

Sola fide is not about salvation. It's about justification. Salvation is a broader topic, in which works have a role.

And, for the ancient Church, the sacraments, perservering in one's faith, etc. are a part of justification. This distinction only appears with Luther.

(although "sola fide" was defined as "salvation by faith alone" not "justification by faith alone.")

[RBerman]

And, for the ancient Church, the sacraments, perservering in one's faith, etc. are a part of justification. This distinction only appears with Luther. (although "sola fide" was defined as "salvation by faith alone" not "justification by faith alone.")

Wikipedia

Sola fide (Latin: by faith alone), also historically known as the doctrine of justification by faith alone...

© source where applicable

Theopedia

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone

© source where applicable

World Encylopedia

The principal Lutheran doctrine is that of justification by faith alone (sola fide). ...

© source where applicable

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions

Luther's understanding of justification by faith alone (justificatio sola fide)...

© source where applicable

And so on.

[themuzicman]

OK, so I was wrong about that... my bad.

[RBerman]

OK, so I was wrong about that... my bad.

I appreciate your willingness to apologize! That speaks well of you.

This is the crux of the matter, and it's often misstated even by its proponents. You'll find many people who speak loosely of "salvation by faith alone," because many people think of salvation exclusively in terms of justification, the forgiveness of sins. But to those with a fully-formed view of the panoply of ways in which God saves us, it's understood that sola fide is more properly a feature of justification, rather than of sanctification or glorification or other elements of our salvation. Luther uses "justification" in a very specific way, more specific than many of his predecessors, which is why it can be dangerous to mine quotes from the ECF since they were addressing different questions using a different grid. Augustine may have spoken of the importance of the sacraments in perseverance, but that's a different question than asking whether the sacraments earn you merit with God. God does use our works to preserve us in faith. We read the Bible and pray and participate in the life of the church, and God thereby sustains our faith. But those are not means of our justification, which is all that sola fide is about.

[themuzicman]

Which is fine, but for the Church, the sacraments, active works of faith, etc. are about justification. The don't make the hard distinction between justificaiton and sanctification. That's what they've always believed. Thus, sola fide is quite novel.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

The Council of Trent decreed that the essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also "sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts" (Trent, l. c., cap. vii:

© source where applicable

[RBerman]

Which is fine, but for the Church, the sacraments, active works of faith, etc. are about justification. The don't make the hard distinction between justificaiton and sanctification. That's what they've always believed. Thus, sola fide is quite novel.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

The Council of Trent decreed that the essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also "sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts" (Trent, l. c., cap. vii:

© source where applicable

Trent is precisely the problem. Before Luther, the distinction between justification and sanctification had not been elucidated so formally. I don't require that medieval Christians "affirm sola fide," since that would be anachronistic. But I do require that Christians do not deny sola fide. The great crime of Trent was that it made the novel declaration that Christians were forbidden to distinguish between justification and sanctification. As a result, the role of works became hopelessly muddled in the Romans schema. Whereas informed Protestants can say that justification is sola fide and still say that good works are a necessary component of salvation, because God is saving us from our sin, as well as from the penalty of our sin.

[themuzicman]

Except that the Church before Luther clearly denied Sola Fide in that they muddled justification and sanctification without issue. That this wasn't a point of controversy doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of salvation accepted by the Church was a clear denial of what Luther later would define as sola fide.

Had the Church embraced something vague that sola fide would fit into, then you'd have a point, but Luther's definition puts the histoprical church's belief outside its bounds.

Thus, if one must have a belief that includes the possibility of sola fide in order to be saved, then there are probably no Christians before Luther. Certainly the vast majority of the Church would have been condemned to hell, including the great theologians upon which we build our doctrine.

[RBerman]

Except that the Church before Luther clearly denied Sola Fide in that they muddled justification and sanctification without issue. That this wasn't a point of controversy doesn't change the fact that the doctrine of salvation accepted by the Church was a clear denial of what Luther later would define as sola fide. Had the Church embraced something vague that sola fide would fit into, then you'd have a point, but Luther's definition puts the histoprical church's belief outside its bounds. Thus, if one must have a belief that includes the possibility of sola fide in order to be saved, then there are probably no Christians before Luther. Certainly the vast majority of the Church would have been condemned to hell, including the great theologians upon which we build our doctrine.

Well, we don't have the luxury of asking the ECFs what they thought about sola fide. Both sides can trot out things they said which seem to support either position, which speaks to the anachronistic challenges of trying to apply one generation's questions to the answers given by a previous generation to a different set of questions, in a different context. It's indisputable that the Reformers thought they were articulating and clarifying existing doctrine rather than building something novel, and it's indisputable that Trent acted specifically to exclude a set of views which previously had not been excluded from the realm of Roman orthodoxy.

[themuzicman]

Um... Luther was clearly departing from the RCC's view of justification. He is the one who applied the term "imputed" to justification in direct contrast to the Church's view. There is simply no way that Luther could claim that he wanted to clarify existing doctrine. He was clearly making a break from the Church's view of sola fide.

[RBerman]

Um... Luther was clearly departing from the RCC's view of justification. He is the one who applied the term "imputed" to justification in direct contrast to the Church's view. There is simply no way that Luther could claim that he wanted to clarify existing doctrine. He was clearly making a break from the Church's view of sola fide.

First, the term "imputed" was not applied to "justification." It was applied to "righteousness," because the clarification being brought to the topic of justification was that our own good works are not the basis of our justification before God. Rather, Christ's own righteousness, imputed to us by faith alone, is the ground of our justification. The Roman church preferred to say that righteousness was "infused" rather than imputed because, as you have noted, they often (but not exclusively, prior to Trent) conflated justification and sanctification, and they wanted to do justice to the truth that our lives do change when we belong to Christ.

The Roman church, AFAIK, had no official view against imputation prior to Trent. A variety of ideas were held and countenanced until then. Indeed, the one of Trent's main purposes was to promulgate new pronouncements as to which doctrines would no longer be accepted, and imputed righteousness was one of those doctrines anathematized. As I mentioned in another thread, Pelikan's "History of Christian Doctrine" volume 4 spends about 100 pages documentating what's now called "Reformed" doctrine in the Roman church prior to Luther.

[Obsidian]

I think you are sort of wasting your time on the Muzic Man, Berman. He just makes conclusory statements of his own long-held opinions, and doesn't even really seem to be reading what you are writing. And his comments that "no one" believed sola fide and thus everyone was condemned to hell are obviously contrary to the quotes I've already given, so I know for a fact he didn't read them very carefully.

[Obsidian]

Here is another pretty good one:

Qui enim tota mente in Christo confidit, etiamsi, ut homo lapsus, mortuus fuerit in peccato, fide sua vivit in perpetuum.

"Whoever believes in Christ with all his mind, even if he dies in sin, by faith will he live forever."

-- Jerome, Letter (CXIX) to Minervius and Alexander

[RBerman]

documentating

Wow, did I really type that? Scary.

[DaveKicks]

Sola fide is not about salvation. It's about justification. Salvation is a broader topic, in which works have a role.

Could you explore this a bit more?

[RBerman]

Could you explore this a bit more?

We need to be saved from many things. One of them is the penalty our sins merit from a holy and just God. That's what justification about, because God reckons Christ's alien righteousness to us when we are united to Christ through faith. Our works have no role in justification.

Another thing from which we are saved is our bondage to sinful attitudes and activities. The same Spirit that unites us to Christ also progressively conforms us to Christ's image. We are moved to avail ourself of the means of grace-- the sacraments, prayer, the study of Scripture-- through which God shapes our attitudes and actions. Such works play a role in our sanctification.