Does Sola Fide need to be embraced to be saved?

[Obsidian]

Berman, your distinction is largely irrelevant, because everyone pretty much agrees that Christians get sanctified eventually. No one believes that heaven will be a legal fiction full of outwardly bad people.

[RBerman]

Berman, your distinction is largely irrelevant, because everyone pretty much agrees that Christians get sanctified eventually. No one believes that heaven will be a legal fiction full of outwardly bad people.

I'm glad that our agreement is sufficient that my comments seem unnecessary to you. But I was asked by Dave, and so I answered.

[Obsidian]

Well as Music Man noted, the actual reformers specifically called it "salvation sola fide," so your emphasis on distinguishing salvation from justification just seems flawed. Or at least I think that was their terminology.

[RBerman]

Well as Music Man noted, the actual reformers specifically called it "salvation sola fide," so your emphasis on distinguishing salvation from justification just seems flawed. Or at least I think that was their terminology.

Citations, please. I addressed this question to Muz's satisfaction on the previous page.

[DaveKicks]

Another thing from which we are saved is our bondage to sinful attitudes and activities. The same Spirit that unites us to Christ also progressively conforms us to Christ's image. We are moved to avail ourself of the means of grace-- the sacraments, prayer, the study of Scripture-- through which God shapes our attitudes and actions. Such works play a role in our sanctification.

So you believe that sanctification is a component of salvation and not a result of salvation?

If that's the case, I have to protest. I think this confuses our status of having being liberated from "our bondage to sinful attitudes and activities" (salvation) with the resulting behavior (sanctified Christians). They are connected but not equivalent.

[RBerman]

So you believe that sanctification is a component of salvation and not a result of salvation? If that's the case, I have to protest. I think this confuses our status of having being liberated from "our bondage to sinful attitudes and activities" (salvation) with the resulting behavior (sanctified Christians). They are connected but not equivalent.

They are connected, but not equivalent. Salvation can be spoken of in several senses and thus in several tenses. We have been saved; we are being saved; we will be saved. To say that sanctification is "a result of salvation" seems to limit salvation to the past, since results follow causes, and sanctification is ongoing throughout life. Even sanctification can be separated into definitive sanctification (we have been set aside by God, marked as his once and for all) and progressive sanctification (following the definitive liberation from our sinful attitudes and activities comes a gradual process of changed habits and attitudes).

[DaveKicks]

They are connected, but not equivalent. Salvation can be spoken of in several senses and thus in several tenses. We have been saved; we are being saved; we will be saved.

Could you elaborate on what you think those distinctions are?

To say that sanctification is "a result of salvation" seems to limit salvation to the past, since results follow causes, and sanctification is ongoing throughout life.

That's a non-sequitir. An ongoing process can be the outcome of a finite (in time) cause. The whole "object in motion tends to stay in motion" bit comes to mind.

Even sanctification can be separated into definitive sanctification (we have been set aside by God, marked as his once and for all) and progressive sanctification (following the definitive liberation from our sinful attitudes and activities comes a gradual process of changed habits and attitudes).

Your definition of "definitive sanctification" seems almost identical to that of "justification." This seems again, a case of cause and effect.

[RBerman]

Could you elaborate on what you think those distinctions are?

Well for instance: We have been saved from the penalty of our sins. We are being saved from the power of sin in our lives. We will be saved from the presence of sin in the world.

That's a non-sequitir. An ongoing process can be the outcome of a finite (in time) cause. The whole "object in motion tends to stay in motion" bit comes to mind.

It's non sequitur. Anyway, my comments are tied up in the concept of salvation as not just something that happens to us in the past.

Your definition of "definitive sanctification" seems almost identical to that of "justification." This seems again, a case of cause and effect.

Not quite. Read this.