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Thread: Justice and mercy with God?

  1. #41
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    interesting thoughts...but they seem inconsistent....?....

    what u r saying is....
    ---Good/Evil come from God (God's knowledge)
    ---God is infinite Good (only)
    ---(infinite) Evil is greater than finite Good
    ---Man is finite and can be overcome with infinite evil
    ---therefore there is (original) sin.

    It seems good/evil both come from God --- yet God is only good.
    To make the force of good as "God" and the force of evil as another force separate from God appears to make evil equal to God.
    and if the force of evil can overcome the force of good---It appears to make evil a greater force than God?
    this then creates 2 "Gods"/forces....one is infinite good (God) and the other is infinite evil (Satan/other) and only the force of infinite evil (Satan/other) can effect Man--God/infinite good is powerless?

    In Islam, there is no force greater or equal to God...so such an idea, while interesting, would not fit in with the paradigm.....
    If one choose to follow what is evil than that person contends with those who live within it. That being a different world with its own rules and what proceeds from it (evil). However, in the same thought, every person has a "light" or "the knowledge" of God or Higher authority to distinguish good and bad in themselves. Everyone has the ability to choose right from wrong and also, to change -distinguishes between human laws and divine law, it is like the flow of the river. Heraclitus - "We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not." Ποταμοῖς τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἐμβαίνομέν τε καὶ οὐκ ἐμβαίνομεν, εἶμέν τε καὶ οὐκ εἶμεν.

    There is an antithesis between 'same' and 'other.' The sentence says that different waters flow in rivers staying the same. In other words, though the waters are always changing, the rivers stay the same. Indeed, it must be precisely because the waters are always changing that there are rivers at all, rather than lakes or ponds. The message is that rivers can stay the same over time even though, or indeed because, the waters change. The point, then, is not that everything is changing, but that the fact that some things change makes possible the continued existence of other things. Perhaps more generally, the change in elements or constituents supports the constancy of higher-level structures. As for the alleged doctrine of the Identity of Opposites, Heraclitus does believe in some kind of unity of opposites. For instance, "God is day night, winter summer, war peace, satiety hunger . . ." (DK22B67). But if we look closer, we see that the unity in question is not identity:


    As the same thing in us is living and dead, waking and sleeping, young and old. For these things having changed around are those, and conversely those having changed around are these. (DK22B88)



    However, if one is consistent and continues to follow what is good, even though there is evil in the world, and preserves while upholding his faith then that person is even more strengthen in his belief in God. Every trial only strengthen belief. The lesson is about learning about God. Remember, what the differences are between "to know" There is a word that I keep thinking about - and for a reason. The English verb ‘to know’ is translated to Hebrew as ‘ladaat’ when relating to factual knowl-edge and as ‘lehakir’ when relating to knowing a person (the same differentiation also occurs in Spanish, with the translations ‘saber’ and ‘conocer’ respectively). But as you say, "The purpose/test of our creation is "to choose" to do God's will (submission) of our own free-will. (Ibadah (worship) = "to do for God")"

  2. #42
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    There is the Biblical Christian doctrine.
    Which would hold the Hebrew account as a historical event (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:1-24). There are professing Christians, of course, which do not hold that it was historical. Biblically people are responcible for their own sin (Romans 5:12; Ezekiel 18:20).
    Biblically people are responcible for their own sin (Romans 5:12; Ezekiel 18:20).
    Perhaps. As I was saying in my last post. Out of our own choices, whether good or bad, this will not change God's faithfulness. ("The sentence says that different waters flow in rivers staying the same. In other words, though the waters are always changing, the rivers stay the same.")

    God’s Faithfulness: 1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

    5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

    No One Is Righteous: 9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

    18“There is no fear of God before their eyes"

    *********

    The meaning of Logos also is subject to interpretation: "word", "account", "principle", "plan", "formula", "measure", "proportion", "reckoning

    *********
    Faithfulness


    According to the scriptures, one of the main characteristics of God is His absolute faithfulness. This virtue in man is also considered to be one of the “fruits of the Holy Spirit” (Gal 5.22).

    To be faithful means to be absolutely true to one’s word, to be totally loyal in one’s devotion, to be completely steadfast and unswerving in one’s own calling and vocation. It also means to remain in humble service, in truth and in love, no matter what the conditions or consequences. To be faithful means to be courageous and to be and to do that which one must be and do by God’s will, regardless of any rejection by others and in spite of any lack of recognition or appreciation. God Himself is perfectly faithful. He has made promises and declared covenants, keeping His word no matter what man does. When men are adulterous and faithless, God remains faithful (cf. Jer 3, Ezek 16); for “the Lord has sworn and will not change His mind” (Ps 110.4, Heb 7.21)....continue:

    ....

    "Faithfulness is characterized by stability of body and soul; the utter refusal to move or be moved for any unworthy reason; the complete dedication to what God gives one to do, with the faith, grace and strength that God gives to do it. As it is written in the sayings of the fathers of the desert: “As a tree cannot bear fruit if it is often transplanted, no more can a monk (or any person) that is often changing his mind and moving from place to place.” The only way to receive the “crown of life” is to be “faithful until death” in the place where God has put us (Rev 2.10). The only way to find joy, wisdom and peace is to be faithful to one’s own uniqueness, knowing that each person has his own specific life and vocation from God which no one else has; his own specific mission which no one else can perform. The spiritual person develops his own life in faithfulness, without envy or fear, and so accomplishes and becomes that which God has willed for him before the dawn of creation"

    ***

    Every incident, in the Exodus, teaches us about "who" God is and how faithful He is to His promise, reference to Song of Mary and Zechariah’s Song. God kept His promise to bring a savior who would redeem us and to bring us salvation. So, regardless of the sins - the savior came to us. As John 1 states: "16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
    Last edited by Marta; 06-12-2017 at 05:06 AM.

  3. #43
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    interesting thoughts...but they seem inconsistent....?....

    what u r saying is....
    ---Good/Evil come from God (God's knowledge)
    ---God is infinite Good (only)
    OK to there.
    ---(infinite) Evil is greater than finite Good
    . . .
    No. Evil is not possible without good.

    That must be understood.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  4. #44
    tWebber
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    "If one choose to follow what is evil than that person contends with those who live within it. That being a different world with its own rules and what proceeds from it (evil). "

    "our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly,"

    "Evil is not possible without good."

    It is possible I am misunderstanding---but it almost sounds Zoroastrian/Manichean? 2 metaphysical forces, one is the force of good the other is the force of evil? God is the force of good but human beings are the force of evil...?... or are possessed by the force of evil...or...?....a devil-man = humanity and God-man = Jesus Christ....

    What is the Christian understanding of evil and/or Satan?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    "If one choose to follow what is evil than that person contends with those who live within it. That being a different world with its own rules and what proceeds from it (evil). "

    "our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly,"

    "Evil is not possible without good."

    It is possible I am misunderstanding---but it almost sounds Zoroastrian/Manichean? 2 metaphysical forces, one is the force of good the other is the force of evil? God is the force of good but human beings are the force of evil...?... or are possessed by the force of evil...or...?....a devil-man = humanity and God-man = Jesus Christ....

    What is the Christian understanding of evil and/or Satan?
    Romans 3:5, "But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)"

    If Christian and Jews are to be judged (alike) or all humanity were to be judged, than could there be any advantages over the others? The parable that Jesus expressed was this; What Jesus told them is that John the Baptist and He received their authority from the same source. This exchange causes the leaders to become angry and puts them in opposition to Jesus. Jesus then further frustrates the priests by telling two parables: the first one is the Parable of the Two Sons, and the second is the Parable of the Vineyard, sometimes called the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.

    The first parable Jesus teaches tells the priests that they have claimed to accept the message from God but they have failed to live up to it by being obedient. Outwardly, they are pious and appear to be people of God, but God knows the heart, and there they have failed miserably. The next parable (the Parable of the Vineyard) is like pouring salt on a wound. Just in case they didn’t fully understand (which they did), Jesus gives a much clearer picture of what He means.What Jesus told them is that John the Baptist and He received their authority from the same source. This exchange causes the leaders to become angry and puts them in opposition to Jesus. Jesus then further frustrates the priests by telling two parables: the first one is the Parable of the Two Sons, and the second is the Parable of the Vineyard, sometimes called the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.

    The first parable Jesus teaches tells the priests that they have claimed to accept the message from God but they have failed to live up to it by being obedient. Outwardly, they are pious and appear to be people of God, but God knows the heart, and there they have failed miserably. The next parable (the Parable of the Vineyard) is like pouring salt on a wound. Just in case they didn’t fully understand (which they did), Jesus gives a much clearer picture of what He means.

    Hopefully this is explainable - and that you understand the verse.
    Last edited by Marta; 06-13-2017 at 07:43 AM.

  6. #46
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    "If one choose to follow what is evil than that person contends with those who live within it. That being a different world with its own rules and what proceeds from it (evil). "

    "our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly,"

    "Evil is not possible without good."

    It is possible I am misunderstanding---but it almost sounds Zoroastrian/Manichean? 2 metaphysical forces, one is the force of good the other is the force of evil? God is the force of good but human beings are the force of evil...?... or are possessed by the force of evil...or...?....a devil-man = humanity and God-man = Jesus Christ....

    What is the Christian understanding of evil and/or Satan?
    Evil is not a thing, rather it is the negation or deprivation of good. God being infinitely good and the Creator. When God created temporal and finite good things - God made it so evil is possible for His good purposes.

    Now Satan is what has become of an entity who rebelled against against God. And satan is anyone or anything against another.
    Last edited by 37818; 06-13-2017 at 01:05 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  7. #47
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Evil is not a thing, rather it is the negation or deprivation of good. God being infinitely good and the Creator. When God created temporal and finite good things - God made it so evil is possible for His good purposes.

    Now Satan is what has become of an entity who rebelled against against God. And satan is anyone or anything against another.
    OK...I can understand this explanation.
    ...So there is no such thing/entity as infinite evil?...correct?...so as Marta explained previously, Man/human nature has the potential for good/bad (Yetzer hara, Yetzer hatov)

    ---God is infinite Good (only)
    ---Good/Evil come from God (Divine presence/lack of Divine presence))
    ---Man is finite and has the potential for good/bad (Yetzer hara, Yetzer hatov)
    ---Man is good but can do bad (lack of Divine presence)
    ---therefore there is sin.

    Did I get this right?
    The degree of good/bad on human nature is controlled by God (presence/lack of presence)?

    "Satan is what has become of an entity who rebelled against against God."---this sounds very Islamic---I can agree to it.
    "And satan is anyone or anything against another."---Sounds similar to the Islamic idea of Shirk (Division).

  8. #48
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    OK...I can understand this explanation.
    ...So there is no such thing/entity as infinite evil?...correct?...so as Marta explained previously, Man/human nature has the potential for good/bad (Yetzer hara, Yetzer hatov)

    ---God is infinite Good (only)
    ---Good/Evil come from God (Divine presence/lack of Divine presence))
    ---Man is finite and has the potential for good/bad (Yetzer hara, Yetzer hatov)
    ---Man is good but can do bad (lack of Divine presence)
    ---therefore there is sin.

    Did I get this right?
    What was left out, was what I did not repeat. The knowledge of good and evil which we inherit from our first parents is the cause of our "sinful nature." We are not infinite like God in our goodness. The knowledge of evil causes our failure and the knowledge of good makes us self condemned before a holy infinite good God.
    The degree of good/bad on human nature is controlled by God (presence/lack of presence)?
    Not exactly. God is omnipresent (Acts 17:28, "In Him we live move and have our being.") So our little sin is done before a holy God. God requires death for sin (Ezekiel 18:20). God in His mercy provided that payment (Hebrew Bible Isaiah 53:6). The sacrifices given in the Hebrew Law (Deuteronomy 27:26) was required of the Jews until the Messiah (Isaiah 53:6) fulfilled what God counted as being already done. (Abraham's faith in God's promise). In which God cannot lie (Christian letter Titus 1:2).

    "Satan is what has become of an entity who rebelled against against God."---this sounds very Islamic---I can agree to it.
    "And satan is anyone or anything against another."---Sounds similar to the Islamic idea of Shirk (Division).
    Does not Islam claim to be of the faith of Abraham (as found in the Hebrew book of Genesis [15:6])?
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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