Justice and mercy with God?

[Marta]

Desire---from the Islamic perspective, the desire for food, shelter, love, safety, society...etc are not "bad"---they are simply a normative condition of being in a "body" on earth. Such desires are necessary for the body to survive on earth and for human flourishing. Desires become "bad" when in excess....for example greed, gluttony...etc....Therefore the purpose of ethics/morality (rules/laws) is to "manage" so as to restrict harm and promote good/benefit.

The purpose/test of our creation is "to choose" to do God's will (submission) of our own free-will. (Ibadah (worship) = "to do for God")

[Cow Poke]

Adolf Hitler...

You win!

I still say that wickedness can spread but also, so can good when we fight to reduce the strength of wickedness with God's help.

I hope you're not expecting an argument on that.

[Christian3]

There is no original sin in Judaism either.
http://www.aish.com/atr/Original_Sin.html
The way Jews understand their Torah and the way Christians interpret the Old Testament are different. That is why Judaism and Christianity are 2 different religions.

Good people can do bad things---why? because God gave us this potential when he gave us limited free-will.

Look at the site you quoted and tell us how Judaism differs from the Islam belief.

"Adam and Eve were punished according to their actions. In other words, God laid down the conditions for Adam and Eve to live in the garden, provided they would not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. However, if they were to eat from that tree they would be punished by experiencing death. (If they had not eaten from the tree, they would have remained immortal.)"

[siam]

Dominionism?---A Christian concept/doctrine? that encourages the belief that Christians are biblically mandated to control all earthly institutions until the second coming of Jesus.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_945601.html

That concept is not Quranic....the Quran talks of Trusteeship, which is about the responsibility to care for all of God's creations.
The Pursuit of happiness/tranquility/peace is a God-given right/responsibility---within relationships and with the community. Both sadness and happiness---like trials and blessings are tests.

[Marta]

You win!



I hope you're not expecting an argument on that.

I was honored to have meant the men (the last remaining) who survived the death march in the Korean War. There wasn't many left but I had talked with a few of them as everyone around gathered around to listen. A very few - who had reunited for dinner. I wonder what they would say about this incident with North Korea today.

During the Korean War, in the winter of 1951, 200,000 South Korean National Defense Corps soldiers were forcibly marched by their commanders, and 50,000 to 90,000 soldiers starved to death or died of disease during the march or in the training camps.[13] This incident is known as National Defense Corps Incident.

[Marta]

Dominionism?---A Christian concept/doctrine? that encourages the belief that Christians are biblically mandated to control all earthly institutions until the second coming of Jesus.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_945601.html

That concept is not Quranic....the Quran talks of Trusteeship, which is about the responsibility to care for all of God's creations.
The Pursuit of happiness/tranquility/peace is a God-given right/responsibility---within relationships and with the community. Both sadness and happiness---like trials and blessings are tests.

The answer is in the last verse - Same concept in the Exodus with Moses: Deuteronomy 29:5"I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. 6"You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order

[Marta]

Desire---from the Islamic perspective, the desire for food, shelter, love, safety, society...etc are not "bad"---they are simply a normative condition of being in a "body" on earth. Such desires are necessary for the body to survive on earth and for human flourishing. Desires become "bad" when in excess....for example greed, gluttony...etc....Therefore the purpose of ethics/morality (rules/laws) is to "manage" so as to restrict harm and promote good/benefit.

The purpose/test of our creation is "to choose" to do God's will (submission) of our own free-will. (Ibadah (worship) = "to do for God")

There in a bush he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram. He sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. Matthew 6:25-26

[Marta]

Some interesting thoughts and connections.

1) Fear--- I agree---but---from the Quranic perspective, the (Arabic) word Taqwa, often translated as love of God/God-consciousness, corresponds better with the English word "awe" which has connotations of both love and fear. Therefore, "fear" could be an element in prompting both good and bad action. The difference would be between non-selfish/altruistic fear---the fear of disappointing God vs selfish fear---the fear for ones self.....?...

2) Yetzer hara and Yetzer hatov---The human soul is called nefesh (Arabic = nafs) and there are 3 categories, a) nefesh b) ruach 3) neshama. Neshama could be equated somewhat to (spiritual) "enlightenment".
In the Quran the human being is made of 3 components, a) the body (bio-chemistry), b) the nafs (soul) and c) the ruh (spirit).....of this, the soul/nafs has 3 levels...nafs ammara (animal/egoic soul), nafs lawama (transegoic soul), and nafs mutmainna (soul at peace). Nafs mutmainna is the highest spiritual level and could be equated somewhat with neshama/spiritual enlightenment......

more info on Jewish ideas---
http://www.aish.com/jl/sp/bas/48942091.html
https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/220/Q4/

3) Interesting connection between thought and action and the role of language (word)/ideas in the transition of thought to action.
My opinion is that generally thoughts/ideas are abstracts and cannot cause harm unless used/abused to justify/promote harmful action. (with the exception of libel/defamation....) Therefore, I would be cautious of any tendencies to restrict thoughts/ideas (though with some exceptions) within human societies. However, God is most knowing---therefore God can judge beliefs and intentions.

Yes, unless we used/abuse to justify/promote harmful actions. Then our action or out of our action that thought becomes real as flesh and blood. We can "create" as if, like James said, those actions are "born" - create, in the same tenacity.

[Marta]

How is God according to Islam both truly Just and truly Merciful?

In Islam---Justice, compassion and mercy are concepts that have relevance to both the relationship between Man and God (vertical axis) and the relationship between Man and Man (horizontal axis).......However, the question posed, concerns the relationship between Man and God only (vertical axis)...so, let us explore the difference between the 2 axis...God and Man and Man and Man.

Tawheed (Unity) = One God. This means that allhumanity is created by the One God. All worship (from humanity) is heard by the One and Only God. This also means that all blessings and trials to (all) humanity come from the will of the One/Only God.---no other. Therefore, justice, compassion, mercy apply to all humanity---not a selected/chosen few. This leads into the concept that all humanity is equal before God. (Only God is most superior, all humanity is equally inferior to God).
Creation is created inherently good. The creation of humanity is also good, therefore human beings possess a natural capacity for good. When they rebel against their own "self"/human nature, they have the capacity to do bad. Therefore, humanity has the capacity and the inclination towards good unless they choose of their own free will to do bad. Another way to phrase this would be---humanity is innocent until they choose otherwise. Yet, this is not enough. it is too abstract. There needs to be evidence/proof of guilt(bad intentions/actions.) Which means---humanity is innocent until proven otherwise.
(At Judgement "day", the human soul is shown evidence so that they are without a shadow of doubt as to their status)

The above aspects of Justice applies to both the vertical and horizontal axis---where the 2 axis differ is in the power relations.
(Only God is most superior, all humanity is equally inferior to God)

Qadr (to measure/destiny)
On earth, humanity has different destinies (measures)---some have little wealth, others have much, some do not have access to knowledge, others do, some have more strength than others, some have a higher capacity for spirituality than others....etc. In spite of these differences, all humanity is inherently of equivalent value before God. (All are equally creations of One God). Our time on earth is a test. Some human beings live longer than others...to give life, or death, or to determine its length (on earth) is a privilege of God. The different measure of trials and blessings God wills to human beings is a privilege (right) of God.

how does compassion and mercy fit into this framework?

There is a saying of the Prophet(pbuh) ---" God's mercy takes precedence over His wrath" (this is also a privilege of God)
In the horizontal axis (man to man), justice, compassion and mercy are bi-directional because all humanity is of equal value to one another.
But in the vertical axis, it is unidirectional---God has no need for justice, compassion and mercy from humanity with regards to himself---it is humanity that is dependent upon God.
Therefore, trials (on earth) are tests and can be both punishment or reward. When a person has been given trials and is patient and remembers God--this trial becomes a blessing (virtue) but when the person becomes arrogant and forgets God (or gets angry at God) this can become a punishment (sin). Abundance (blessings) can also be a punishment or reward---A person who has been given much and is grateful and shares what God has given---this can become a reward (virtue) but if he is ungrateful and forgets God or is arrogant---this can become a punishment (sin).
In this context, "want"(trials) and abundance(blessings) are neither good nor bad but take on the color/hue depending on human intentions/actions. (Arabic= Sharr/Khair)

Human beings are each given a measure of life-span---long or short----within this life-span we may do good and/or bad---whatever good we do will be rewarded, whatever bad we do will be punished. BUT God, most merciful, most compassionate will give every opportunity for us to be remorseful and ask forgiveness during our life-span. This opportunity comes to an end at death.
The way to heaven is wider than that to hell. While we are on earth, we can have right belief that can promote right intentions that lead to right actions orif we fall into error, then to repent, ask forgiveness and strive to reform (jihad). Only those who persist in wrong belief that promote wrong intentions that lead to wrong actions, despite knowing it is wrong---will be punished.

How does (divine) justice fit into this framework?

God has given Guidance (scriptures/Wisdom teachings), sent teachers (Prophets, Sages..etc) and created humanity with a capacity for Good and human nature that inclines towards good. God has also provided intelligence and reason so that even if guidance and teachers were unavailable, we would be able to use our intelligence to reason about these matters. But to those who may have less measure of this capacity, God has also given us eyes to see the "signs of God" (in nature) and the intuition to feel awe.
If, despite all these favors, human beings persist in intentionally doing wrong, then it is just and fair that there be consequences for the harm they cause (to God's creations and to their own souls)
(...to not have consequences for the intentional harm caused, would be unjust)


We all come from God and will return to God.

Yes! Your statements (down below) are in the same direction that I made with my previous comment:

siam;447417 How is God according to Islam both truly Just and truly Merciful?

God has given Guidance (scriptures/Wisdom teachings), sent teachers (Prophets, Sages..etc) and created humanity with a capacity for Good and human nature that inclines towards good. God has also provided intelligence and reason so that even if guidance and teachers were unavailable, we would be able to use our intelligence to reason about these matters. But to those who may have less measure of this capacity, God has also given us eyes to see the "signs of God" (in nature) and the intuition to feel awe.
If, despite all these favors, human beings persist in intentionally doing wrong, then it is just and fair that there be consequences for the harm they cause (to God's creations and to their own souls)
(...to not have consequences for the intentional harm caused, would be unjust)


We all come from God and will return to God.

We are our own teachers even within our family. Whatever we learn about God and when God enlightens our thoughts/beliefs we begin to see how to live rightly. Sometimes those beliefs can come from our own experiences and those who teach us; Parents and Family (external family), even our own children teach us about how to love and to forgive. Within that concept of teaching, like God's comment to Jonah, we are not a property to someone or to something (materialism). Our selves and those we love belong to God and we return back to God. However, we (to ourselves) have to grow and learn even in a bad situation. We all have the means when we ask God to help us - to change to become a better person. Only when we give up hope do we stop.

I think of the verse Jesus stated to the apostle or the three angels that visited Abraham - "Nothing is impossible with God!" or "Is anything impossible for God to do"
either way!

[siam]

Human dignity and Imago Dei---
As I understand it, Judaism and Christianity formulate concepts of equality, human dignity, and responsibility as partners/caretakers on earth (tikkun olam/repair the world)...from this idea of Imago Dei?....
perhaps you could elaborate on this?....

Islam/Quran does not have this concept because Muslims cannot do imagery of God. So, Muslims use the concept of the 99 names of God---among which are Justice, Compassion, Mercy...etc...
There is a saying of the Prophet which explains that of the 100 portions of Mercy, God sent one portion to his creation, from which they show mercy between themselves, and the other 99 portions God has kept to bestow to his creation......
...this exemplifies the difference between the limits of our human imagination to comprehend the vastness of God's attributes and smallness of any likeness to human actions of Divine mercy, justice, compassion....etc....

It is interesting how in spirit, the essence of many of our concepts are very similar/same---though the language used to express these ideas are different.....?....



....thoughts about mercy from a Muslim perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k-i9vk080w&t=675s

[37818]

There is no original sin in Judaism either.
http://www.aish.com/atr/Original_Sin.html
The way Jews understand their Torah and the way Christians interpret the Old Testament are different. That is why Judaism and Christianity are 2 different religions.

Good people can do bad things---why? because God gave us this potential when he gave us limited free-will.

The argument "there is no original sin" is a fallacy. There was always a first [an original] sin. Either mankind being always sinful, or being created good and then there being a first sin. There is no way around this, even if the garden story of the fall man is a myth.

[siam]

The argument "there is no original sin" is a fallacy. There was always a first [an original] sin. Either mankind being always sinful, or being created good and then there being a first sin. There is no way around this, even if the garden story of the fall man is a myth.

Sorry, I made a mistake.
What I meant to say was the Christian doctrine of original sin (and all it entails) is a uniquely Christian interpretation---Jews and Muslims do not have this concept.
Jews don't have a very strong/clear concept of the afterlife---but Muslims do. The starting premise is that God forgives sins and sins cannot be inherited, passed on, acquired by another person/group. Subsequent ideas about Divine Judgement are based on this premise.

[Marta]

Human dignity and Imago Dei---
As I understand it, Judaism and Christianity formulate concepts of equality, human dignity, and responsibility as partners/caretakers on earth (tikkun olam/repair the world)...from this idea of Imago Dei?....
perhaps you could elaborate on this?....

Islam/Quran does not have this concept because Muslims cannot do imagery of God. So, Muslims use the concept of the 99 names of God---among which are Justice, Compassion, Mercy...etc...
There is a saying of the Prophet which explains that of the 100 portions of Mercy, God sent one portion to his creation, from which they show mercy between themselves, and the other 99 portions God has kept to bestow to his creation......
...this exemplifies the difference between the limits of our human imagination to comprehend the vastness of God's attributes and smallness of any likeness to human actions of Divine mercy, justice, compassion....etc....

It is interesting how in spirit, the essence of many of our concepts are very similar/same---though the language used to express these ideas are different.....?....



....thoughts about mercy from a Muslim perspective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k-i9vk080w&t=675s

SEE ARTICLE

[37818]

Sorry, I made a mistake.
What I meant to say was the Christian doctrine of original sin (and all it entails) is a uniquely Christian interpretation---Jews and Muslims do not have this concept.
Jews don't have a very strong/clear concept of the afterlife---but Muslims do. The starting premise is that God forgives sins and sins cannot be inherited, passed on, acquired by another person/group. Subsequent ideas about Divine Judgement are based on this premise.

There is the Biblical Christian doctrine.
Which would hold the Hebrew account as a historical event (Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:1-24). There are professing Christians, of course, which do not hold that it was historical. Biblically people are responcible for their own sin (Romans 5:12; Ezekiel 18:20).

[siam]

Pre-modern religions were a "way of life"--- a philosophy that formulated ethico-moral principles in the framework of a larger narrative/paradigm so that people could give assent to a set of ethical rules/laws by which to govern their lives.
Modernity/secularism has stripped "religion" of some of its philosophy, ethics/morality, rules/laws and reduced it into a "culture"....one that is "private".
IMO, there is much potential for good in a comprehensive and consistent "way of life".