Monergism refuted

[Xru]

29Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20

14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matt 19

12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. Ecclesiastes 12

I think I get what you mean. Thanks.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing;
but that she would be holy and blameless. Ephesians 5

Cleansed by the teaching, sanctified by the sacrifice...

Hummm....

The text reads "Cleansed... by the washing of water with the word."
Now clearly, the WASHING of WATER with the WORD is BAPTISM...
That is why He charged His Apostles to
DISCIPLE ALL THE NATIONS
BAPTIZING THEM...

Baptism, you see, is HOW they are cleansed...

And sanctified...

And then, in trials, acquire righteousness through acquiring virtue...

Or not...

Arsenios

[RBerman]

You should read Spurgeon: 19th century English, garrulous, contradictory: any one reading his testimony would not know if it was an Arminian or Calvinist confession.

Or perhaps would have a mistaken impression of what a Calvinist confession looks like.

[RBerman]

It is painfully obvious to me that my knowledge is inadequacy to contribute to this thread except to ask a question. Is this discussion relevant to my salvation?

Nope. It's just Muz, picking a fight with Calvinism. It's a common sport around here.

[footwasher]

George wrote:

The text reads "Cleansed... by the washing of water with the word."
Now clearly, the WASHING of WATER with the WORD is BAPTISM...
That is why He charged His Apostles to
DISCIPLE ALL THE NATIONS
BAPTIZING THEM...

Baptism, you see, is HOW they are cleansed...

See this:
9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.” John 13

3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15


Paraphase
Your head is in heaven, but those feet, those feet touch the earth at the end of every stride, and sometimes they land wrong and twist. So you need your brothers to tweak them back in shape, so you can leap again. And show the world. Judas, I'm afraid he never left the ground. My teachings never took root....

And sanctified...

Sanctification is done. Anybody thinks otherwise belittles the efficacy of the Cross. All that's left is to unveil the Light...

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

This better(?):

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and was broken for her, for the remission of sins, 26for the purpose of sanctification, having already cleansed her, by the washing of water with the word,

Loaded, and locked...

[RBerman]

So parse:

Quote
Secondly. If this be the work of the Spirit alone, how is it that we are exhorted to it? — seeing the Spirit of God only can do it, let the work be left wholly to him.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/owen/mort.i...rV=27#i.v-p0.4

After wading through the article again, I could not find out how we are to mortify our sins. He uses disparate Scriptural passages totally out of context to support his views, which when analysed don't say much.

Since you've studied him as well, could you give a brief encapsulation of the article?

I posted an outline of the whole book here. But let's not debate it in that thread. I agree that Owen didn't give a lengthy exposition of any single Scripture (excepting Romans 6:13) since that was not the purpose of the book. As for the "how is it that we are exhorted to it?" question above: It's from Chapter Three. Owen is anticipating the objection that, if the Holy Spirit is the efficient cause of our sanctification, therefore there's nothing we do but sit back and watch the Spirit work. He answers the question in two parts:

John Owen

[1.] It is no otherwise the work of the Spirit but as all graces and good works which are in us are his. He “works in us to will and to do of his own good pleasure,” Phil. ii. 13; he works “all our works in us,” Isa. xxvi. 12, — “the work of faith with power,” 2 Thess. i. 11, Col. ii. 12; he causes us to pray, and is a “Spirit of supplication,” Rom. viii. 26, Zech. xii 10; and yet we are exhorted, and are to be exhorted, to all these.

[2.] He doth not so work our mortification in us as not to keep it still an act of our obedience. The Holy Ghost works in us and upon us, as we are fit to be wrought in and upon; that is, so as to preserve our own liberty and free obedience. He works upon our understandings, wills, consciences, and affections, agreeably to their own natures; he works in us and with us, not against us or without us; so that his assistance is an encouragement as to the facilitating of the work, and no occasion of neglect as to the work itself.

© source where applicable

[footwasher]

Sounds like sitting back and letting the Holy Spirit do all the grunt work. Very Finney-esque.

[RBerman]

Sounds like sitting back and letting the Holy Spirit do all the grunt work. Very Finney-esque.

Wrong on both counts. If you actually read Owen you'd see how inaccurate the first assessment is. And Finney was actually all about human effort, to the point of near-Pelagianism.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George wrote:

The text reads "Cleansed... by the washing of water with the word."
Now clearly, the WASHING of WATER with the WORD is BAPTISM...
That is why He charged His Apostles to
DISCIPLE ALL THE NATIONS
BAPTIZING THEM...

Baptism, you see, is HOW they are cleansed...

See this:
9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.” John 13

3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15

Well, this is fine for 11 of the 12 Apostles under Christ in the flesh,
but THEN we have the REST of us...

And for the REST of us, we have Baptism, as Christ commanded.

What have you got against Baptism?

Paraphase
Your head is in heaven, but those feet, those feet touch the earth at the end of every stride, and sometimes they land wrong and twist. So you need your brothers to tweak them back in shape, so you can leap again. And show the world. Judas, I'm afraid he never left the ground. My teachings never took root....

The same holds true after Baptism - Once cleansed, we are still walking the earth, and we can sin, and if we do, we confess, repent, and receive forgiveness - And this is how the faithful receive forgiveness for sins from their feet while walking on the earth... AFTER Baptism, for the Apostles and their successors have the power to bind and loose sins... Thus we wash each other's feet, so to speak...

Sanctification is done. Anybody thinks otherwise belittles the efficacy of the Cross. All that's left is to unveil the Light...

Not so fast... It is destroyed by sin... It is done upon one's Baptism, but that purity which one is, emerging from the waters of regeneration in holiness, is tarnished as soon as one's feet walk the earth, and keeping it pure as one does indeed walk the earth is what living a repentant life is all about, which life is discipled in the Body of Christ, the Church...

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

This better(?):

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and was broken for her, for the remission of sins, 26for the purpose of sanctification, having already cleansed her, by the washing of water with the word,

Loaded, and locked...

The Church, which is the Bride, is cleansed by the washing of WATER with the Word...

Ready on the left...
Ready on the right...

I am a combat veteran, my brother...
But I can play with you on the range, if you like...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

Wrong on both counts. If you actually read Owen you'd see how inaccurate the first assessment is. And Finney was actually all about human effort, to the point of near-Pelagianism.

You're dangerously close to identifying Owen's technique with Pelagianism...

Finney, along with Chafer and Ryrie were the "let go and let God" boys?

[footwasher]

You can't have a diploma on the wall unless you have the education to back it up. Don't want to be shooting blanks do we?

And Jerry 7.92mm (the enemies' ammunition/world's teaching) won't slot into into our Springfield 308s: nasty jammings and cripplings hoving into view. So praise the Lord and pass the (right) ammo willya?

[RBerman]

You're dangerously close to identifying Owen's technique with Pelagianism.

I suggest you read him again more carefully.

Finney, along with Chafer and Ryrie were the "let go and let God" boys?

No. Charles Finney was obsessed with developing the proper set of human techniques by which one could ensure that an unbeliever would become a Christian.

[footwasher]

Ah, but with regard to sanctification, how does Owen differ from this:

4. Pelagianism: It tends to portray the Christian’s free will as autonomously starting and stopping sanctification.

http://ccclh.org/blog/?p=1234

[RBerman]

Ah, but with regard to sanctification, how does Owen differ from this:

4. Pelagianism: It tends to portray the Christian’s free will as autonomously starting and stopping sanctification.

http://ccclh.org/blog/?p=1234

Are you really asking how Pelagianism is different from Calvinism?

[Bill the Cat]

I looked at it and was not at all sure what He meant - But I guessed that He meant the one at the end of the Age, when all that is fallen will be restored, and this would then be the "regeneration" of fallen creation...

But why guess? I have Theophylact's commentary on Matthew, so I went to 19:28 and lo and behold"

"By 'regeneration' understand the resurrection of the dead at the Last Judgement."

So I was not too far off, perhaps...

The regeneration of Baptism is the precursor, the "earnest" of THAT dread and glorious event...

Now in part... Then in full...

Arsenios

The regeneration is our resurrection. We are not regenerated until we are raised from the dead. However, we are saved, and promised this resurrection, therefore, it can be spoken of as a present reality. But it is our resurrection, period. And the resurrection does not occur until the end of the age, therefore, our regeneration has not yet occurred.