Christians vs. Secular Humanists (Part 2)

[elysian]

Why do (orthodox) Christians contend that destroying life before birth (abortion) is wrong, that "mercy killing" the old, the ill or the infirm (euthanasia) is wrong, while secular humanists advocate and encourage both as "freedom of choice?"

Why do Christians insist that there are moral standards and that certain sexual behaviors are simply deviant and wrong, while secular humanists rationalize and glorify virtually anything attached to sex?

I have discussed in a previous post how the two world views are diametrically opposed.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...720#post304720

Christians believe that the world and everything in it was created by God. We believe that humans were created in God's image, to glorify Him. We generally agree that :

This church accepts the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired Word of God and the authoritative source and norm of its proclamation, faith, and life. (from the ELCA Constitution)

On the other hand, if one does not embrace the concept of an omnipotent Creator God who cares for His children and therefore has set boundaries around their behavior there is another choice. bHumans were designed to seek God- and humans will find the god they are looking for. Many who claim to have no belief in God- who claim the label "atheist" or "secular humanist" would likely have no problem with the "Nine Satanic Statements" according to the Satanic Bible:

1. SATAN represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! (go ahead, indulge in your every sadistic and deviant sexual fantasy?)
2. SATAN represents vital existence, instead of spiritual
pipe dreams. (live in the now?)
3. SATAN represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical
self-deception! (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge- Proverbs 1:7)
4. SATAN represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! (only love those who are expedient to you?)
5. SATAN represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! (vengeance belongs to the Lord- He will repay- Romans 12:19)
6. SATAN represents responsibility to the responsible,
instead of concern for psychic vampires! (expediency once again?)
7.SATAN represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often times worse than those that walk on all- fours,who,because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development,"has become the most vicious animal of all! (just do it, 'cause the animals do?)
8. SATAN represents all of the so-called sins,as they all lead to physical,mental,or emotional gratification! (sin leads to death-Romans 6:23)
9. SATAN has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he kept it in business all these years! (no, he has created schism, disputes, bloodshed and dispute in the churches, but he's certainly not kept it in business!)

Ever wonder why there's such heated differences?

What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 2 Corinthians 6:15 (NIV)

The wisdom of the Gospel is lost on those who have not been enabled to believe by the Holy Spirit's power. Human wisdom is very often at the opposite spectrum of God's wisdom and God's will, hence the conflicts between those who believe and those who do not.

Christians WILL be ridiculed for their beliefs and will be challenged by the world's "wisdom." We will find it difficult to live with those who do not believe. Although we are entrusted to "speak the truth in love" and to proclaim the Good News, not everyone will receive the Good News with joy. We are compelled to continue to speak the truth, even in the face of opposition.

"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:14-16 (NIV)

[Cowthulu]

Very interesting post. I am not sure about the forum it was placed in. It compares ideologies instead of politics.

Otherwise.

[elysian]

I debated that as well. But our political differences begin in the ideological differences. Your world-view determines your politics, and therefore the politicians who are elected and the legislation that is passed.

[TheOneAndOnly]

"1. SATAN represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! (go ahead, indulge in your every sadistic and deviant sexual fantasy?)
2. SATAN represents vital existence, instead of spiritual
pipe dreams. (live in the now?)
3. SATAN represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical
self-deception! (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge- Proverbs 1:7)
4. SATAN represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! (only love those who are expedient to you?)
5. SATAN represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! (vengeance belongs to the Lord- He will repay- Romans 12:19)
6. SATAN represents responsibility to the responsible,
instead of concern for psychic vampires! (expediency once again?)
7.SATAN represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often times worse than those that walk on all- fours,who,because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development,"has become the most vicious animal of all! (just do it, 'cause the animals do?)
8. SATAN represents all of the so-called sins,as they all lead to physical,mental,or emotional gratification! (sin leads to death-Romans 6:23)
9. SATAN has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he kept it in business all these years! (no, he has created schism, disputes, bloodshed and dispute in the churches, but he's certainly not kept it in business!)"

To be honest, I don't see much wrong with any of these statements. They seem more practical than most of the christian statements you showed for comparison.
BTW You do know satanists don't actually believe in a physical satan?

[Chuck Lee]

Wow! Glad I'm not a secular humanist!

Sounds, well, SATANic!

[Gilgaron]

Christians WILL be ridiculed for their beliefs and will be challenged by the world's "wisdom." We will find it difficult to live with those who do not believe. Although we are entrusted to "speak the truth in love" and to proclaim the Good News, not everyone will receive the Good News with joy. We are compelled to continue to speak the truth, even in the face of opposition.

That's true for anyone.

[AtheistArchon]

- Ahm, okay, let's work with this one. Starting at the beginning.

Why do (orthodox) Christians contend that destroying life before birth (abortion) is wrong, that "mercy killing" the old, the ill or the infirm (euthanasia) is wrong, while secular humanists advocate and encourage both as "freedom of choice?"

- You probably already know my stance on abortion, but suffice it to say that there are TONS of secular humanists out there opposed to abortion. And euthanasia. I am friends with several!

- Also, you've oversimplified both of these considerably. In my case, for example, I don't judge these actions based on "life" (TM), I base it upon the condition of the person. But this is another (lengthy) debate.

Why do Christians insist that there are moral standards and that certain sexual behaviors are simply deviant and wrong, while secular humanists rationalize and glorify virtually anything attached to sex?

- Another drastic oversimplification. I presume you refer primarily to homosexuality, in which case you'd be on the money. But "virtually anything attached to sex"? No. Pedophelia, rape, incest... these things? I personally know zero SH's who consider these things as okay.

- I will let the first part slide as a typo... SH is nothing but a set of moral standards. So uh, we do have some. They're not yours, but they exist.

On the other hand, if one does not embrace the concept of an omnipotent Creator God who cares for His children and therefore has set boundaries around their behavior there is another choice. bHumans were designed to seek God- and humans will find the god they are looking for. Many who claim to have no belief in God- who claim the label "atheist" or "secular humanist" would likely have no problem with the "Nine Satanic Statements" according to the Satanic Bible:

- Oo boy, is this from LeVey? You know, even LeVey admitted that the whole "Satanic Bible" thing was nothing more than a large dig at Christianity.

- Not to mention the fact that these "Satanic laws" are um... completely foreign from secular humanism. There's a reason why we have things like the Humanist Manifesto. THAT is where you might get a list of do's/don'ts. As it stands, you're simply calling secular humanists Satanists. Bzt.

- But let's work with these and see how they fare against my own SH code(s).

1. SATAN represents indulgence, instead of abstinence! (go ahead, indulge in your every sadistic and deviant sexual fantasy?)

- All sexual fantasies are sadistic and deviant? I think not. Anyhow, to answer at all, I'd have to know which acts we're talking about.

- "Indulgence instead of abstinene" is far too broad a statement to comment on.

2. SATAN represents vital existence, instead of spiritual
pipe dreams. (live in the now?)

- Maybe. Sounds a little confusing to me. As an atheist I would agree, but the concept of Satan is prety "spiritual" I'd say.

3. SATAN represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical
self-deception! (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge- Proverbs 1:7)

- *shrug* It just sounds like another dig at Christianity. I have plenty of knowledge, and I fear zero gods or goddesses (including any whose name starts with an "s").

4. SATAN represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! (only love those who are expedient to you?)

- Secular humanism does not encourage anything like this.

5. SATAN represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! (vengeance belongs to the Lord- He will repay- Romans 12:19)

- Ditto.

6. SATAN represents responsibility to the responsible,
instead of concern for psychic vampires! (expediency once again?)

- *shrug* What's a psychic vampire?

7.SATAN represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often times worse than those that walk on all- fours,who,because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development,"has become the most vicious animal of all! (just do it, 'cause the animals do?)

- A subtle prod of evolution, no doubt. And no, your conclusion doesn't logically follow from this particular law. I think the idea is a respect for nature, but I can't be certain.

8. SATAN represents all of the so-called sins,as they all lead to physical,mental,or emotional gratification! (sin leads to death-Romans 6:23)

- Silly. Not everything Christians list as "sin" is gratifying in the least, IMO. I have no real desire, nor would I get any kicks, from boiling a goat in it's mother's milk, for instance.

9. SATAN has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he kept it in business all these years! (no, he has created schism, disputes, bloodshed and dispute in the churches, but he's certainly not kept it in business!)

- If there were no perceived evil, why would there be any need for salvation? I always ask that of evangelists. What do I need to be saved from?

- But no, this also has nothing to do with secular humanism.

Ever wonder why there's such heated differences?

- When you arbitrarily compare secular humanism to Satanism? No, I don't have to wonder!

The wisdom of the Gospel is lost on those who have not been enabled to believe by the Holy Spirit's power. Human wisdom is very often at the opposite spectrum of God's wisdom and God's will, hence the conflicts between those who believe and those who do not.

Christians WILL be ridiculed for their beliefs and will be challenged by the world's "wisdom." We will find it difficult to live with those who do not believe. Although we are entrusted to "speak the truth in love" and to proclaim the Good News, not everyone will receive the Good News with joy. We are compelled to continue to speak the truth, even in the face of opposition.

- Mmmkay. So what is the point here? Secular humanists are Satanists in disguise? Or are you just trying to villify us by comparing us to yet another religion we don't believe in??

- Satanism is stupid. It has just as much moral foundation as Christianity. If you really are interested in secular humanism, you might be interested to see the real manifesto, instead of comparing us to the imaginary force of evil you believe in and we don't.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html

[Chuck Lee]

I think the moral of the story is that Elysian has built a big, demonic straw man from the worst traits one can manage to find among the diverse population of secular humanists. Then Elysian has demolished that straw man. I think we can all agree that the extreme case is unacceptable. I also think it would would be extremely difficult at best to find anyone matching the straw man, since it's a horribly faulty composite.

One could come up with a demonic straw man just as bad or worse from self-professed (orthodox) Christians, which in no way would represent Christianity in general. It's simply unfair and rather pointless to compare Christianity in general to a secular humanist straw man.

[elysian]

I went to the extreme end of the spectrum to spark debate: not all Christians are the "Landover Baptist" characture as well as not all non-theists are "Satanists." Yes I am aware that LeVey was taking a dig at Christians and didn't actually believe in the Christian adversary, Satan.

There are varying degrees of belief/nonbelief as well but that would be a whole new topic. My husband is agnostic (I would say actually more of a "deist"- he believes there is a God but that in his understanding God just kind of leaves people alone and doesn't do much. He also does not believe in salvation.)

The point is if you have basic morality where does it come from?

Do you believe in the naturistic approach (what I properly understand secular humanism to be) which if carried to extremes can lead to a completely utilitarian view not unlike LeVey's "Satanism?"

Or do you believe that we were intentionally created for a purpose? (Which can also be carried to far- when humans use "saved" and "unsaved" as reasons to hate or reasons to inflict cruelty on others...i.e. the Crusades, modern day Jihads.)

What I would propose is how to mitigate the negatives of each extreme?

[Ben Franklin]

Yesterday @ 05:04 PM post located here
elysian:

I went to the extreme end of the spectrum to spark debate: not all Christians are the "Landover Baptist" characture as well as not all non-theists are "Satanists." Yes I am aware that LeVey was taking a dig at Christians and didn't actually believe in the Christian adversary, Satan.

There are varying degrees of belief/nonbelief as well but that would be a whole new topic. My husband is agnostic (I would say actually more of a "deist"- he believes there is a God but that in his understanding God just kind of leaves people alone and doesn't do much. He also does not believe in salvation.)

The point is if you have basic morality where does it come from?

Do you believe in the naturistic approach (what I properly understand secular humanism to be) which if carried to extremes can lead to a completely utilitarian view not unlike LeVey's "Satanism?"

Or do you believe that we were intentionally created for a purpose? (Which can also be carried to far- when humans use "saved" and "unsaved" as reasons to hate or reasons to inflict cruelty on others...i.e. the Crusades, modern day Jihads.)

What I would propose is how to mitigate the negatives of each extreme?

Morals is just applied ethics, so if you want to know where morality comes from, look to your own philosophy. I tried asking people about the origin of personality on another thread, but it never took off... maybe your personality determines your ethics ?