Debating Buddhist sources to Christianity with J. P. Holding

[jpholding]

Checking for any arguments for dating....

Nope. None there.

Time's running out for the monkey boy.

[Raphael]

Mr. Hopkins, may I point out something that you appear to not be understanding?

In order to demonstrate that Christianity borrowed from Buddhism, you need to do several things. First you need to provide evidence that the relevant Buddhist writing both pre-dates the Christian writing you are claiming borrows from it, and that the source of the thought in question originates with Buddhism and that it wasn't something that Christianity picked up from the Jewish writings, and that the Christians writing in the first century would have had access to them. And your sources for this information would have to be credible sources.

You have not as yet done any of that. The closest you get to it is making a saying that an illustration in the NT vaguely resembles a quotation from Buddhist writings and using questionable sources for your information.

If you want JP, and Abigail, and those of us who are spectators to this discussion to take your claims seriously, you have to actually present serious evidence that can be evaluated, not just assertions.


Oh and can you do a personal favour for me? Choose a font (and font size) and stick with it. The defaults will do nicely.

[David Hayward]

I would add this:

Winston Churchill once said something along the lines that the Greek and Roman writers are often credited with great wisdom; but this is misplaced, he said: the Greeks and Romans said fairly obvious things that anyone could have said, eventually would have said, and possibly their predecessors had probably said for centuries before; but the Greeks and Romans got the credit simply because they wrote them down first.

The relevance of that to this thread is that eg salt, fig trees and mustard seeds were so widespread, and the similies based on them so obvious, that the similies will inevitably have been widely used across continents and throughout history; possibly - or if the similes are very obvious, probably - they may pre-date both Buddhist and Judaeo/Christian writings: I think you will have difficulty establishing that they did not.

So even if Dan Hopkins can establish that there is a parallel between Buddhist writings and the OT and NT, the dependency of one upon the other is not established.

David

[jpholding]

Oh and can you do a personal favour for me? Choose a font (and font size) and stick with it. The defaults will do nicely.

He can't do that cuz Buddha used diffrent fonts all da time.

[DanHopkins]

Dear Raphael,
J P. asked that I stick only to the gospels and Buddhist texts, but I think you should know that I argue Buddhism’s worldwide spread adds support to Christianity's dependency on Buddhism. When tracing the origins to animal fables, many scholars would use the line, ““A fable [as unique as] as the Ass in the lion’s skin could not have been invented twice”. This was in regards to the travels of a Buddhist fable (Sihakamma Jataka) to Aesop’s fables (Also referenced in Shakespeare’s King John Act II scene I, Act III scene I). These fables were first collected by Ptolemy Philadelphus’ librarian Demetrius Philaretes.

Other Buddhist fables spread even farther, consider the Aztec fable about a rabbit who offers a man-god himself as food, only to be rewarded with a trip to the moon (Alice your next!). The same fable spread throughout all Asia via Buddhist missionaries. This with the volume of work provided in the book “An Inglorious Columbus, Or, Evidence That Hwui Shan and a party of Buddhist monks from Afghanistan discovered America in the fifth Century AD”, shows Buddhism was the first religion to place members on all continents.

""
“The popularity of the eastern sages was, of course, nothing new. It had long been believed that Plato, Pythagoras and other wise men of the Greeks had traveled in the East and sat at the feet of its renowned teachers; and occasionally their visits were reciprocated, as by the 'Chaldaean' and the 'magi' who visited the Academy of Plato while its founder was still alive. Such contacts naturally multiplied in the wake of Alexander's armies. Oriental intellectuals like Manetho or the Babylonian priest Berossus were moved to describe their own religious traditions in the language of their new rulers; while among the Greeks there arose a demand for the ipissima verba of the oriental sages. Hence the books of the Persians, the Chaldaeans, and, of course, Hermes Trismegistus, adjusting in various degrees the wisdom of the East to the palate of the Greek. At the heart of all these genres lies the same cultural and intellectual compromise. Greco-Roman orientalism and the occidentalism of the Eastern elites both reflected a sense of intellectual incompleteness, and a consequent readiness to adjust cultural boundaries. Greeks were attracted by the numinousness of oriental religions and the antiquity of oriental cultures. What resulted was an unevenly and idiosyncratically homogenized culture, in which it was not uncommon for the same texts to circulate indifferently under the names of both Greek and oriental sages.”_Garth Fowden



Most of the scholars dating the Buddhist texts were Christian and, as I mentioned several times before, they date the Sutta Nipata to well before 200 b.c. If you want I can copy and paste their reasons. A lot of the dates to Pali Buddhist texts were first somewhat fixed when Sir William Jones identified the Greek Sandrocottus as the Chandragupta, a grandfather of the Buddhist king Asoka who was said to marry a Syrian Greek. Once scholars translated Asoka’s rock inscriptions they noticed a progression in the Brahmi script he used; here the coins of the Greco-Buddhist kings Menander, strato, Heliokles II, Theophilus (an Epithet of Asoka "beloved of gods" and Luke is addrressed to one), Peukolaos, Nicias, Hermaeus, Hippostratos, among others, were very useful as they were bilingual in Greek and Prakrit in the Brahmi & Kharosthi scripts. Soon after they identified inscriptions of the names of Greek donors of Buddhist churches in both the Brahmi and Kharosthi script. In his edicts, Asoka names five different “nikayas” by name, one of teaching these teachings he mentions was called the “Muni sutta” which Christian scholars agree was grouped in the Sutta Nipata well before Christianity. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...aro/asoka.html)

They also note that, as Buddhists did not represent Buddha in art, a fig tree (Ficus religiosa) stood in for Buddha in the, according to Christian scholars, pre-Christian Buddhist art of Sanchi and Bharhut.They also agree that, the trees blooming “out of season” when Buddha is born, “withering” when he dies, Asoka’s jealous girl “cursing the Bodhi (fig) tree”, the expectation of a “counterfeit” Buddhist religion, the devil carrying the udumbaras fig tree and the rare appearance of the fig flower (which the LS compares to the future hero/s), are all pre-Christian (ask for one source at a time).

Mark and his Fig story, begin by Jesus ridding on an ass no one has ever ridden; the OT quotes, no, half-quotes, are well known, but also Siddhartha was the only one to ever ride his horse. and Buddha was represented by a horse with “no rider” (the riderless horse of US Pres. Funeral ceremonies).

Here, the town/s Jesus is said to enter, so close to Jerusalem, have never been found. And so when we read Jesus entering Beth-page, I think I’m justified in reading this word to mean Bodhi-fig(pag) with an alternative meaning of ‘meeting’ (paga) the Bodhi tree. “Bethany” could also mean "Bodhi-fig", in which case again the authors leave clues to their unnamed sources. Another unknown gospel location was Magadan, it is where Jesus is said to have walked on water and Buddha levitated across the Ganges at Magadha. Again, pictures of this scene in art are at Sanchi and Bharut (See. Some Sanskitisms in the New Testament gospels).


You wrote that I need to show” that Christians writing in the first century would have had access to them [Buddhist texts]. I don’t know about “need to”, but such a connection would help add proof.

As I have mentioned it is the early Christians who tell us that Scythianus had made good money trading goods he brought back from India and that he had four books with him, one they called the “Gospel of Scythianus” and his student was called Buddas. That they used the Latin word evangelium, from the Greek, for a non Christian book is very revealing. Incidentally, the Greek ‘eu’ is the Sanskrit ’su’ (good) and it is widely known that Greek Angelos is from angaras which is said to mean “mountain messenger” and this must be the Sanskrit Angiras, the Vedic angels. It being the same word it could not have been form the separation of Indo-European languages. These Angirasas followed Agni who was annointed with GHRTA; among other Buddhist kings, Asoka was said to have been annointed with GHRTA (cog. Christ &name for Agni in the Yajurveda).
You asked how Christians of the first century could come in contact with Buddhism but a better question is if Buddhism penetrated into the Levant before the time of Jesus. The Mahavamsa claims that monks were sent to the Yona (Greek) city of Alexander (Allassada, probably not the Egyptian Alexandria)

“From Alasanda the city of the Yonas the thera Yona (elder Greek Buddhist) Mahadhammarakkhita with thirty thousand bhikhus. _Mahavamsa XXIX

There is also a lot more evidence for believing first century Jews had access to Buddhist books, in support of this I will paste excerpts from my work; also revealing how a clear Buddhist/Jewish connection, through Ptolemy Philadelphus, was overlooked.
When scholars started noting seep parallels between Buddhism and Christianity, they started to ask how Buddhism could have penetrated the Levant when there seemed to be no evidence of such a contact.
Max Muller states;

"I am sorry that you did not consider evidence which I put together about the coincidences between Christianity and Buddhism sufficient to enable an intelligent jury-a jury is always intelligent-to give a verdict. However, I must confess that for years I have been very much perplexed myself' and even now, though I cannot resist the impression that there must have been historical contact between the Christian and the Buddhist intellectual atmospheres, I cannot explain how it came about, I cannot point out the exact historical channel through which the communication took place-Life and letters of the Right Honourablr Friedrich Max Mullern, p349
A couple of sentences later he unknowingly gives proof that Jesus’ goddes of wisdom, Sophia, and “Her children" is the Buddhist wisdom goddess Prajnaparamita Dr. Lindtner has found as Athene Nike on Menander's coins. He writes, "I understand what you mean by Logos=Athene. The fundamental idea is the same, though mythologically, I should say that the Sophia comes nearer to Athene than the Logos."
There are many quotes from Max Muller showing he intended to spread Christianity in India while translating Sanskrit texts. One such quote is;

"India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the time of St. Paul, the rotten tree (India) has for some time had artificial supports.. For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle" Max Muller to Chevalier Bunsen. Aug 25, 1856.

This is the type of scholar we would expect to be partial in a question of Christianity borrowing from Buddhism but in the end he would admit the likelihood that the gospels are indebted to Buddhism.
Also, in his search for “historical contact [proof of]” he neglects many evidences, such that the gospel authors quote from a Book commissioned by a man who the Buddhist king Asoka claims was welcome recipient of Buddhist missionaries.

[jpholding]

You wrote that I need to show” that Christians writing in the first century would have had access to them [Buddhist texts]. I don’t know about “need to”, but such a connection would help add proof.

Dang, where's that picture of a guy with his head up his backside when you need it.

Monkey Boy has 24 hours to present just this type of evidence or this thread says sayonara (Sanskrit word first used by Buddha, means, roughly, "ow, he kicked me hard").

[DanHopkins]

J P rejects the testimony of Hippolytus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Socrates Scholastica, & 4th cent Acta Archelai that mention Scythianus & Buddas , the former, they said, had four books and brought back a doctrine from India and traveled with a beautiful prostitute to Judaea to cause havoc.
I guess if you reject Christian authorities you will also reject Alexander Jannus, Virgil’s fourth Eclogue, Metatron, Pliny the Elder, fragments of Brahmi script and a Buddhist rosary in Ptolemy Philadelphus city Bernice, etc..

The connection between Mani and Buddas is also mentioned in a letter of Marius Victorius (4th c. AD ) Marius Victorinus, Liber ad Justinum Manichaeum, Migne J.-P. (ed.), Patrologia Latina 8, 1844, pp. 999-1010.
Roman historical accounts describe an embassy sent by the Indian king Pandion (Pandya?), also named Porus, to Augustus around 13 CE. The embassy was travelling with a diplomatic letter in Greek, and one of its members was an Indian religious man (sramana) who burned himself alive in Athens to demonstrate his faith. The event created a sensation and was described by Nicolaus of Damascus, who met the embassy at Antioch, and related by Strabo (XV,1,73 and Dio Cassius. A tomb was made for the sramana, still visible in the time of Plutarch, which bore the following inscription, "ΖΑΡΜΑΝΟΧΗΓΑΣ ΙΝΔΟΣ ΑΠΟ ΒΑΡΓΟΣΗΣ" ("The sramana master from Barygaza in India").
"Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sramanas among the Bactrians ("Σαρμαναίοι Βάκτρων"); and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sramanas ("Σαρμάναι"), and others Brahmins ("Βραφμαναι")."
— Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies)

The story of the birth of the Buddha was also known: a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha's virgin-birth, and Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says "was born from the side of a virgin".
“A corollary that has been deduced from the doctrine of Mary’s virginity in the conception of Jesus is the doctrine of her perpetual virginity, not only in conception but in the birth of the child (i.e., she was exempt from the pain of childbirth) and throughout her life”. Buddha’s mom was first exempt from pains and after his fake death it was said he first appeared to Maya, as Jesus was said to first appear to Mary.

“The relative silence about Indian thought in our sources from the late Roman Empire may in part be due the philosophical war, with its attendant book-burnings, that was flaring between the Christian and pagan schools (especially Neoplatonism). - Thomas Mcevilley

[jpholding]

Nope. Still no dates.

Closing thread. Back to the jungle, monkey boy.

[DanHopkins]

J P, I gave you many dates from Christian scholars and early Christians, I did not expect you to be fair, I'm hoping Abagail and Raphael will be. There are many more strong parallels which need to be addressed, but first a few thoughts on Christian partialities in so called "scholars".
Modern scholars have failed to recognize obvious prejudices behind those 18 th and 19 th century writers who have covered the Buddhist/Christian parallels and denied any Christian borrowing. A good example of this is that the outright proselytory tone of the Sanskritist Sir Monier Williams is overlooked. Sadly, he is still considered an authority in Indological studies and in his book, Brahmanism, and its connection with Buddhism, he states; “"In fact, Buddhism commended itself to the Japanese, as it did to the people of every country to which it spread by its receptivity; and just as in Tibet , it adapted itself to the Shamanism which previously existed there... hence it happened that the Buddhists were always ready to acquiesce in, and even conform to, the religious practices of the countries to which they migrated, and to clothe their own simple creed in, so to speak, a many-colored vesture of popular legends and superstitious ideas[1]". Of course, this is exactly how Buddhism spread but Monier Williams never openly considers this type of compromising adaption by the Buddhists among the Jews and the larger Levant. Though never entertaining the idea of a connection between Buddhism and Christianity, Monier Williams often draws parallels between Buddha and Jesus. In Buddhist Studies he states, “In the legendary history of the Buddha Gautama, he is described in terms which almost assimilate his character to the Christian conception of a “Redeemer”; he is even reported to have said—“let all the evils (or sins) flowing from the corruption of the fourth or degenerate age (called Kali) fall upon me, but let the world be redeemed.”. Since his time, scholar’s have steadily confirmed that this is an accurate description of how Buddhism spread and more and more scholars are accepting that early Buddhism also, if not founded, influenced, many Indic ideas practices[2] and institutions[3] that are usually, in their modern label, lumped together as “Hindu”.

In his book about the Buddhists and Brahmins he enters into a fairly long and out of place diatribe around the superiority of Christ. At least the prejudices of Sir Monier Williams are obvious, with other brilliant scholars we must sometimes look closer. Other times the prejudiced scholar is seen in his manner of expression; so, in his book comparing Buddhism and Christianity, Thomas Sterling Berry shows his partiality when he states, “Whether OUR scriptures do not themselves bear witness to Buddhist influence”[4]. Since ancient times, until now, those who have denied the Buddhist sources to Christianity have exhibited a very obvious ignorance. It is right to question why Jerome, who mentions Buddha’s virgin birth, and Clement[5], who says Buddha was worshipped as a God, did not address the parallels to Jesus which they themselves recognized as later Christian additions. Leaving to the side the silence by early church fathers, let’s look at modern scholars have not discussed. When he was a devout Christian, Max Muller wrote that he would be grateful to anyone who could point out a historical channel by which such a borrowing of Christianity from Buddhism could have taken place. Given how much of the interaction of Alexander’s people with the Indian he covered I suggest willful neglect and suspect that he feared the same type of blowback that Sir Williams Jones received when advancing his theories of oriental influence[6]. But several scholars of his time did point to an obvious Greek, or Macedonian, goal of imitating India. So, they[7] pointed out that Macedon of Alexander was first the Buddhist kingdom known as Magadha, the Greek horse-men of the east called the Centurions reference the Scythian Buddhist of Gandhara, the first king of the Greeks, Ogyges of Boeotia, was first the first Buddhist king, Okkaka. Ogyges was said to be the son of Cadmus, Boeotia, and Poseidon, and this must have been allegory for the Sanskrit Buddhist names Gotama, Buddha, and Pa-siddha. All of the legendary histories connected with Ogyges came after Alexander’s contact with India.

In his writings, Muller extolled Ptolemy Philadelphus for his contribution to preserving literature and developing grammar which was needed to correctly render foreign works into the Greek language of Alexandria. He was aware of the rumors that Philadelphus wanted to translate all the Indian works and admits that this particular Ptolemy, like Alexander the Great and the Buddhist king Asoka, though having a particular creed, was a Patron of all religions and displayed many synchronistic tendencies and a want to gather all of the world’s literature. The same goes for his father, Alexander’s general Ptolemy Soter (savior), who, through Eurydice and Ptolemy of Aloros, was a distant cousin (possibly half-brother) of Alexander, and, who shared in their family’s ambition to conquer Asia. Both of these men followed some of the Persian kings in being kind to the Jews and it was Ptolemy that demanded full citizenship for Jews living in Alexandria. Alexander and Ptolemy I shared a deep interest in Indian philosophy and the name of his first son is an epithet used by many Indian man-gods[8]. It can be theorized that if Alexander had not taken the advice to move to the center of his empire from the Indian sage Calanus he may have not passed away so young. Ptolemy I’s connection to this Indian sage is recorded when we read independent sources claim that Calanus asked him to light the fire that would burn him alive. Several hundred years later an Indian king sent an Indian sage, presumably Buddhist, who self immolated in front of a crowd in Athens (Some have suggested that Paul criticizes this act in Acts XVII. 23). In both cases the Greeks were captivated and Plutarch mentions the word Sramana in his title and early church fathers recognized the Buddhists as the Samnoi, which is the same as our word Shaman (see. Etym. Of shaman).
Several western scholars believe Asoka’s influence on Philadelphus is seen in the philosophers of his kingdom, such as Hegesias[9] , who it is said Philadelpius had to muffle. The contacts between the Persian Sakae and the Ptolemies is well known but also these same Sakae had been loyal to Darius and had their settlements in Egypt[10]. Perhaps these Egyptian Sakae are related to the Saka who founded the town of Scythopolis[11] which the first several Ptolemies used as a parting point for their Indian goods. It should also be known that Philadelphus married his sister just as it was said of Brahma & Abraham (both married Sarah) and also the Buddhist claim the ancestors of Buddha married their sisters because they were supremacists and, being expelled from their kingdom, they could not marry any other women besides their sisters[12]. Regarding lost books, according to known history, no collection has been destroyed as much as Philadelphus’.

[1] Studies in Buddhism, p. 88

[2] Non-violence to animals is the most obvious and the Buddhists were not the first large group to advocate this in India but also, in short, simple answers to metaphysical explanations such as the fourfold negation used by several Greek Sophists.

[3] The association of Buddhism with ancient Indian, or Bharat secular learning institutions is made by several scholars and so has their influence on Republics that have a judicial system paralleling the modern western systems. One early account is given by Porphyry who mentions the Buddhists had colleges, later we will discuss the bells which he says were used to call the faithful to prayer. The early Buddhist texts also paint the Saka republics as having assemblies like modern caucuses. That the Greeks called these gatherings by referring the system of those of the Caucasus religion, or the Scythians or Sakae and while I have pointed out the Greek and Roman interaction with India that spread eastern ideas west, these Scythians mastered the almost impassable Caucus mountains that have always been a natural east/west divide.

[4] The author, like Muller, is totally ignorant of ‘cultural dispersion’, though in Muller’s time the phenomenon had not been specifically named. Like others he also makes the critical mistake of supposing that there was ever such a thing as a unified “Christianity”, or,”Buddhism” and here it should be noted that those scholars supporting a borrowing from Buddhism often call some gospels Buddhist.

[5] Clement copies the account of Megasthenes and he mentions the Boutta as if they were separate from Megasthenses “Samanoi” but proves they were Buddhist by mentioning that there were female Samano, or “Semnoi which must have been the “Bhikkhuni”, the name for a female Buddhist monk.

[6] After further investigation I have become certain that Sir William Jones experienced this type of persecution till the end of his days.

[7] In his book, India in Greece, Edward Pococke was the first to make these associations and others would follow with more supporting evidences.

[8] Ptolemy Keraunos = Sans. Karunas, ‘The Compassionate’ translated by Jesus as splagchnizomai and karusso, the first Greek word also used to reference an obscure and cultic word for lightening, the Koine Greek being astrape and the reader is reminded that many ancient kings had names associated with lightening, ex, Hebrew Baraq is a title that is derived from the word for lightening. The Buddhist kings also called themselves Varja-rajas, or “lightening Kings”. The other Greek word, karusso, is also applied to Apollo.

[9]The philosopher Hegesias of Cyrene (nicknamed Peisithanatos, "The advocate of death") was a contemporary of Magas and was probably influenced by the teachings of the Buddhist missionaries to Cyrene and Alexandria. His influence was such that he was ultimately prohibited from teaching." Jean-Marie Lafont,Inalco in "Les Dossiers d'Archéologie", No254, p.78

[10] Since the Gypsies were Scythians and since they have been in Egypt for ages I would guess there is a relation and others have also suggested that the Gypsies were Buddhist because of certain prohibitions such as only eating animals if they are found dead, some trace the Gypsies to those who the Romans hired as police, they wore the Scythian cap seen in Central Asian Buddhism and which was so symbolic to the French and American revolutions. .

[11] Centuries earlier Alexander the Great left troops in this very area and at Scythianus’ time a legion of Roman soldiers, who took control from Alexander’s remnants, fought the Chinese Han. A line of trade was eventually established by which the Romans secured contracts for Chinese silks and Indian spices. At the beginning of our calendar, when the Romans exploited the trade routes originally plotted out by Alexander’s general Ptolemy who wrestled it from Seleucid ,they seized Scythopolis (city of the Saka {warriors}) GREEK WORD SCETES = ASCETIC the place where the Jewish/Greek/Buddhist king Alexander Jannus signed a peace treaty with Cleopatra. Alexander Jannus was a Hellenized Jewish king who crucified Pharisee and had the eight sided Buddhist wheel on his coins (King Jannai). He was said to have crucified many Pharisees who sided with Demetrius. Josephus says that, after some time, one man was taken off the cross/stake and survived

[12]Explaining how these Saka princes became intertwined with Brahmaism, a little later in the same legend we read of a Brahmin king who left his throne for the woods because he had of leprosy. There he met a Saka women who also had leprosy, they married and the offspring were Buddha’s ancestors. Also noted is that the southern Tamils of India practiced marriage with first cousins and it was with these people that Philadelphius established trade and these same people, and southern Indian in general, have always remained independent from and Indian, or Bharat-ian, control.

[jpholding]

Mods, please close the thread since monkey boy can't provide hard evidence, especially not from anyone who isn't over 100 years old.