What is the evidence for Buddhist origins?

[shunyadragon]

I picked this remark up on the other thread, and thought it worth responding to.

Is Chinese written-history young? If I am assuming correctly, it hasn't been carbon-14 dated like Indian history.

The dating of early Chinese Neolithic and Bronze Age history is extensive by many methods, Carbon-14, Potassium-Argon (much more accurate than C14), Accelerator Mass Spectrometry Technique (AMS Technique), Luminescence, and others.

[OmniSkeptical]

Your exact words were: "And then the Romans learn it [koine] from the Stoics who also taught the Athenians".

Evidently, not exact. I meant metalurgy. It is interesting how Gold is a translation for a word in a text which doesn't have a modern elemental chart.

Um what. Are you saying that Koine IS Modern Greek? Trust me, it's not.

No, but there are many stupid bible scholars who pretend it evolved directly from Koine. It didn't.

Notice I have to repeat this.

Irrelevent.

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that Solomon's temple was "one of the few stone buildings" in the Hellenestic era?

Clay is not stone, and stone requires sharp metal tools to hewn.

There is nothing stupid about the states of matter state as solid, liquid, and gas: "Earth", "Water", "Fire". Fire is a gas

The three elements were 3 states of matter.

. And there is nothing remotely coherent in your response.

Earth the translation for greek meaning solid, etc etc etc. This is somewhat proven. I wouldn't be shocked if lava was considered in the "water" state.

And I should have suspected an inane, content-free non-response like that.

Not as inane or as content free as the belief that language evolves from non-language like noises and grunts.

How does that support your stupid claim that the Stoics somehow taught Greek, stone cutting and metallurgy to the Greeks and Romans?

First you have to observe the states of matter, before you can melt rock into metal. Silver-colored metal was valued for a reason. How did they know what silver or gold was? Cause and effect...?

[OmniSkeptical]

The dating of early Chinese Neolithic and Bronze Age history is extensive by many methods, Carbon-14, Potassium-Argon (much more accurate than C14), Accelerator Mass Spectrometry Technique (AMS Technique), Luminescence, and others.

Yes, but I don't see much Carbon-14 dating being used, if at all.

[Faid]

Evidently, not exact.

Yes, very much exact.

I meant metalurgy.

No you didn't. Here are your words in full context:

How do you beat the Babylonians who theoretically as semites have wot (past tense of wit) how to smelt metal? You copy them by adapting your language to theirs. And hence the so-called new Koine or vulgar Greek, which wasn't vulgar, but had strong Aramaic influences on its grammar.

And then the Romans learn it from the Stoics who also taught the Athenians.

Rewriting the history of the discussion won't help you.
Not that your claim that Babylonians taught metalurgy to the Athenians and Romans through the Stoics (!!!!!) is any less absurd...

It is interesting how Gold is a translation for a word in a text which doesn't have a modern elemental chart.

More random words devoid of meaning. Care to elaborate in plain and coherent sentences?

No, but there are many stupid bible scholars who pretend it evolved directly from Koine. It didn't.

"Bible" scholars? What on earth...?
And where did modern Greek come from, pray tell? The Babylonians? The Stoics? Aliens?

Irrelevent.

Your monumental mess-up of events and chronologies is hardly irrelevant. I doubt if you even know when the Hellenestic era was, or the geographical locations of Athens, Alexandria, Babylon and Greece even.

Clay is not stone, and stone requires sharp metal tools to hewn.

More irrelevant non-answers. Let me try again.

Are you referring to the Hellenestic era, or not?
Did you claim that the temple "was one of the few stone buildings in existance at the time", or didn't you?

Since the above are rhetorical questions (You ARE referring to that era, and you DID say that) let me ask again:

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that Solomon's temple was "one of the few stone buildings" in the Hellenestic era? Seriously?

The three elements were 3 states of matter.
Earth the translation for greek meaning solid, etc etc etc. This is somewhat proven. I wouldn't be shocked if lava was considered in the "water" state.

Besides being wrong, the above are completely irrelevant to any claim that Babylonians taught Athenians Greek and metal working and stone cutting during the Hellenestic era. Planning on supporting any of that soon?

Not as inane or as content free as the belief that language evolves from non-language like noises and grunts.

LOL. I said that Koine was derived from the Attic dialect. Are you saying that people in Classical Athens spoke with noices and grunts? That wouldn't surprise me, since apparently you also think they couldn't smelt metal or cut stone...

First you have to observe the states of matter, before you can melt rock into metal. Silver-colored metal was valued for a reason. How did they know what silver or gold was? Cause and effect...?

The words you are typing seem to have no cause and effect at all. Just random thoughts that lack any coherence or meaning and lead nowhere. Or perhaps your MO is just that, to throw absurdities and, when asked to support them, to respond with even greater (and irrelevant) absurdities, until your opponents give up in frustration. Either way, I do not intend to play that game.

My question was: How does that support your stupid claim that the Stoics somehow taught Greek, stone cutting and metallurgy to the Greeks and Romans?

If you have any relevant, coherent and sensible support for that claim, please present it. In plain English, please. If you can't, let us know.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, but I don't see much Carbon-14 dating being used, if at all.

You may not in tropical regions where deterioration of carbon based antiquities are rapid and often highly contaminated. In more arid regions like the Middle East carbon 14 dating is more reliable. ancient documents are also beter preserved in arid climates. In the tropics the Dead Sea scrolls and the Nag Hamerabi documents would not have survived. I like the coins, and the Buddhist coins are definitely solid evidence of the existence of Buddhism in the BCE era. The language analysis of carved script that describe the evolution of the language before during and after the Ashoka Kingdom with parallel dating of the pottery, and stone illustrations is also found on gives solid evidence for the dating of the Ashoka Buddhist Kingdom and Buddhism.

[OmniSkeptical]

As in most of the history of early religions, like Christianity and Judaism. The documents are much more recent than expected.

Try, at least, 1500 BCE. It is interesting you give Judaism short shrift, while claiming to be able date coins by the reign of kings which were unknown. And where are all the Indian documents relating to Greco-Roman civilization? If they were so old and advanced why did India merge welcome the Persian Zeroastrian kingdom. It is also likely Mani was the first Monotheistic Zeroaster, being a Gnostic and influenced by Jewish ideas.

And wasn't it the most-well known buddha who brought great knowledge, technological progress and a golden age to India? Most of the "DSS" of Buddhism don't mention him.

Coins won't do it, Potassium-argon dating is for rocks; and so far, you have shown me no radiocarbon dating information.

Too bad?

[Faid]

It is also likely Mani was the first Monotheistic Zeroaster, being a Gnostic and influenced by Jewish ideas.

Fun note: Manichaism considers Buddha older than Jesus in the succession of prophets until Mani.
But then again, that's probably because they were fooled by distorted knowledge handed down by those mud-dwelling, grunt-making troglodytes of Classical Greece.

[OmniSkeptical]

Fun note: Manichaism considers Buddha older than Jesus in the succession of prophets until Mani.

"Shapur's successor Hormizd I (who reigned only for one year) appears to still have patronized Mani, but his successor Bahram I, a follower of the Zoroastrian reformer Kartir, began to persecute the Manichaeans." Yes, a reaction to Manicheaism. The Zoroasters were moving away from polytheism. Interesting.

Here's another fun note: "The Christian tradition of Mani is based on Socrates of Constantinople, a historian writing in the 5th century. According to this account, one Scythianos, a Saracen, husband of an Egyptian woman, "introduced the doctrine of Empedocles and Pythagoras into Christianity"; that he had a disciple, "Buddas, formerly named Terebinthus," who travelled in Persia, where he alleged that he had been born of a virgin, and afterwards wrote four books, one of Mysteries, a second The Gospel, a third The Treasure, and a fourth Heads."

India's last Buddha is evidently the most well-known and is not this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)

[OmniSkeptical]

Another fun note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terebinthus

[shunyadragon]

Try, at least, 1500 BCE.

Please, show references to 1500 BCE for OT scriptures

It is interesting you give Judaism short shrift, while claiming to be able date coins by the reign of kings which were unknown. And where are all the Indian documents relating to Greco-Roman civilization? If they were so old and advanced why did India merge welcome the Persian Zeroastrian kingdom. It is also likely Mani was the first Monotheistic Zeroaster, being a Gnostic and influenced by Jewish ideas.

No short shift at all. The coins are dated not only by the kings, but the archeological evidence as found. Show evidence that the date of the kings are unknown.

There is no evidence that Jews influence Zoroastrian monotheism. Can you provide academic sources that document Jewish scripture older than Zorastrianism?

And wasn't it the most-well known buddha who brought great knowledge, technological progress and a golden age to India? Most of the "DSS" of Buddhism don't mention him.

There is no claim that Buddha brought technological knowledge nor a golden age to India. The supposed "DSS" are not apart of the evidence for BCE Buddhism.

Coins won't do it, Potassium-argon dating is for rocks; and so far, you have shown me no radiocarbon dating information.

Too bad?

No, not to bad, I explained why C-14 dating will not be used often in tropics. Coins do work well. On what qualifications are you judging well documented archeological evidence?

Your ignorance is revealing. What are your qualifications for making these claims. Potassim-argon is used for different kinds of dating other than rocks.

[OmniSkeptical]

Please, show references to 1500 BCE for OT scriptures

I am not supposed to trust Jews, over Chinese and Indian historians who exaggerate their traditions.

There is no claim that Buddha brought technological knowledge nor a golden age to India. The supposed "DSS" are not apart of the evidence for BCE Buddhism.

The supposed dead sea scrolls of buddhism are not related to buddhism? That is a 3rd fun note.

Coins do work well.

Coins are easily to put in lava and sedimentary rock, but some forged coins are great for proving Ginseng berries were used by the Greek women as contraception control. I am guessing all you would have to do is polish off the sedimentary rock, and it is shiny, if the coins had ever been in rock to begin with.

Potassim-argon is used for different kinds of dating other than rocks.

You are thinking of Argon-Argon dating, which should have never confused with the original method.

There is no evidence that Jews influence Zoroastrian monotheism. Can you provide academic sources that document Jewish scripture older than Zorastrianism?

Zoroasterianism's future resurrection and judgement are copied from rewritten OT Jewish forgeries, and not the Revelation of Jesus to John. The judgement in christianity happened in the past, and the rising of the dead was related to the judgement. Judaism has some weird system were it happens on the earth in the time to come, and many naive christians copy it.

"One article in the line says

“The Senior collection dating is of particular importance as this result makes a major contribution to Indian chronology in showing that an early date of 78 AD for a key historical figure, the Kushan emperor Kanishka, is no longer tenable.” ‘Dead Sea scrolls’ may be missing link in Buddhism]"

[Faid]

"Shapur's successor Hormizd I (who reigned only for one year) appears to still have patronized Mani, but his successor Bahram I, a follower of the Zoroastrian reformer Kartir, began to persecute the Manichaeans." Yes, a reaction to Manicheaism. The Zoroasters were moving away from polytheism. Interesting.

Here's another fun note: "The Christian tradition of Mani is based on Socrates of Constantinople, a historian writing in the 5th century. According to this account, one Scythianos, a Saracen, husband of an Egyptian woman, "introduced the doctrine of Empedocles and Pythagoras into Christianity"; that he had a disciple, "Buddas, formerly named Terebinthus," who travelled in Persia, where he alleged that he had been born of a virgin, and afterwards wrote four books, one of Mysteries, a second The Gospel, a third The Treasure, and a fourth Heads."

India's last Buddha is evidently the most well-known and is not this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)

Funniest note: Manichaism STILL considers the prophet Buddha older than the prophet Jesus, your equivocation with names notwithstanding.

Then again, what we know of Manichaism comes mainly from Socrates of Constantinople, who, since he shares the same name with The Classical philosopher, was obviously the same person, and was therefgore a grunting mud-dweller.

Right?

[Faid]

Another fun note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terebinthus

Cyril of Jerusalem

— 23. But Terebinthus, his disciple in this wicked error, inherited his money and books and heresy , and came to Palestine, and becoming known and condemned in Judæa he resolved to pass into Persia: but lest he should be recognised there also by his name he changed it and called himself Buddas. However, he found adversaries there also in the priests of Mithras : and being confuted in the discussion of many arguments and controversies, and at last hard pressed, he took refuge with a certain widow. Then having gone up on the housetop, and summoned the dæmons of the air, whom the Manichees to this day invoke over their abominable ceremony of the fig , he was smitten of God, and cast down from the housetop, and expired: and so the second beast was cut off.

Indeed.

[Faid]

There is no evidence that Jews influence Zoroastrian monotheism. Can you provide academic sources that document Jewish scripture older than Zorastrianism?

Zoroasterianism's future resurrection and judgement are copied from rewritten OT Jewish forgeries, and not the Revelation of Jesus to John. The judgement in christianity happened in the past, and the rising of the dead was related to the judgement. Judaism has some weird system were it happens on the earth in the time to come, and many naive christians copy it.

So your answer is "No, I can't"?

[OmniSkeptical]

And where did modern Greek come from, pray tell? The Babylonians? The Stoics? Aliens?

Modern Greek is an obvious artificial language which is an attempt at continuing the greek language.

Indeed.

Yeah, that was one of the first Buddhas? Buddha would not be a common name; if it was at the time, the name of well-known figurehead. Try again.

Manichaism STILL considers the prophet Buddha older than the prophet Jesus, your equivocation with names notwithstanding.

They obviously don't what they are talking about, nor do the Zoroastrians who stole Mani's worthless ideas. Was he first monotheistic Zoroaster, a king or a reformer?

therefgore a grunting mud-dweller...

It is your language theory, not mine.

So your answer is "No, I can't"?

Still clinging to the hope that the first Monotheistic Zoroaster had influenced the hebrews. One of the most major contributions of Zoroasterian religion on Judaism was stoicism. The belief that the ψυχη, which is the human breath, became the Jewish definition of soul. The soul was later associated with cycles, and growing human respiration, heb. nashema. This is related to late Jewish belief in reincarnation.

Also, the Zoroastrians needed to have one god, so they picked the sun god as creator of the universe. This was due to stoic influence where fire was considered the main state of matter, because the zoroastrians copied the later greek rejection of reincarnation. Heraclitus did not believe in it.

I should also be noted for a few early centuries, the Jews believe an angel called Logos was the "anthropomorphisms" in the old testament. John 1:1-3 has no such doctrine, and merely states when read correctly: At the beginning, it became a word; and a word it became with a deity, and the deity it became a word. A same thing, it became at the beginning with a deity. Any a thing, through it, was; and without it, was nothing what was." I wonder what the inspiration for the obscurity was.

It is also interesting to note, how the old testament doesn't exaggerate anything about human behavior, or chronlogy. We hear about all the character flaws about its protagonists, while hearing nothing of the flaws of the protagonists in pagan writings.