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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    It is predictable that the latest conclusive evidence will be written off as wrong within five years, and that statement can be made on the basis of consistent results to date. Until it can be scientifically verified that spontaneous generation is possible....

    ..."Spontaneous generation" is an old term, synonymous with "abiogenesis."
    "Spontaneous generation" is the theory that mould is produced by bread, mice emerge from grain and moths are a by-product of dirty laundry. It has absolutely nothing to do with evolution or abiogenesis unless you're a creationist-duping huckster trying to sow confusion.
    Last edited by Roy; 06-12-2017, 09:26 AM.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

    Comment


    • #17
      I posted the dictionary definition - what definition are you posting?
      here's another one, from Encyclopaedia Britannica: Spontaneous generation, the hypothetical process by which living organisms develop from nonliving matter; also, the archaic theory that utilized this process to explain the origin of life.
      Oh - you posted the archaic definition, not the current definition.
      Let's try another definition:
      [Farlex Dictionary](Biology) a theory, widely held in the 19th century and earlier but now discredited, stating that living organisms could arise directly and rapidly from nonliving material. Also called: abiogenesis .... Abiogenesis = Spontaneous Generation.
      How about Merriam Webster : a now discredited notion that living organisms spontaneously originate directly from nonliving matter —called also abiogenesis
      The SCIENCE of evolution makes no claims about the origins of life
      The SCIENCE of biology declares spontaneous generation to be a discredited hypothesis.
      The evolution FAITHERS declare biologists wrong.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        I posted the dictionary definition - what definition are you posting?
        I'm using the same one that you are using.

        What I am not doing, but you are, is conflating the modern usage of 'abiogenesis' with the previous use of that term to refer to spontaneous generation.

        'Abiogenesis' can mean spontaneous generation, just like 'bull' can mean a male whale. That does not mean that 'male whale' refers to a bovine, or 'spontaneous generation' refers to the current theories on life's origins.

        Pretending that it does is dishonest.
        The SCIENCE of biology declares spontaneous generation to be a discredited hypothesis.
        The evolution FAITHERS declare biologists wrong.
        Male whale faeces.
        Last edited by Roy; 06-12-2017, 10:26 AM.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

        Comment


        • #19
          Dictionaries: spontaneous generation, called also abiogenesis.

          Roy: 'Abiogenesis' can mean spontaneous generation

          Not hard to decide which definition is the more authoritative.

          Thought Co: It's a Myth that Abiogenesis is the Same as Evolution. The origin of life is certainly an interesting topic, but it is not a part of evolutionary theory. (and they blame the YECs for circulating the myth.)
          abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory, in that evolution is the theory of how life changes over time, not how life may have arisen from non-life. (and yes, these too blame the YECs for circulating the myth) - See more at: http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-ven....ncLCSjU1.dpuf
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Dictionaries: spontaneous generation, called also abiogenesis.

            Roy: 'Abiogenesis' can mean spontaneous generation
            Yes, it can.

            Abiogenesis can also refer to modern theories on the origin of life, which are very very different from the discredited 19th Century ideas about mice being spontaneously generated in grain silos.

            If you'd bothered to think about this, or even bothered to look up the definition of 'abiogenesis',* you might have realised that the two statements are actually compatible, that 'abiogenesis' has two distinct meanings, that you are equating them, and that your contention that the discreditation of spontaneous generation has any effect at all on modern theories on the origin of life is false.

            You are propagating a lie. Do you care?



            *noun: abiogenesis - the original evolution of life or living organisms from inorganic or inanimate substances.
            •historical - another term for spontaneous generation.
            Last edited by Roy; 06-12-2017, 10:58 AM.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • #21
              *noun: abiogenesis - the original evolution of life or living organisms from inorganic or inanimate substances.

              No problem with that definition - it is when people claim that abiogenesis is part of the theory of evolution that the problem arises.
              abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-ven....ncLCSjU1.dpuf
              or claim that "abiogenesis" does not mean "spontaneous generation," or that using the term "spontaneous generation" is somehow invalid.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                *noun: abiogenesis - the original evolution of life or living organisms from inorganic or inanimate substances.
                I see you have dishonestly deleted the other definition of abiogenesis: •historical - another term for spontaneous generation
                that highlights the difference between the ancient use of 'abiogenesis' to refer to mice appearing in grain silos, and the modern usage of 'abiogenesis' that does not refer to the theory of spontaneous generation.
                No problem with that definition - it is when people claim that abiogenesis is part of the theory of evolution that the problem arises.

                or claim that "abiogenesis" does not mean "spontaneous generation," or that using the term "spontaneous generation" is somehow invalid.
                Using the term 'spontaneous generation' as being synonymous with modern ideas of abiogenesis is invalid.

                You are propagating a lie, and you don't seem to care.

                But that's creationism in a nutshell. Lies generated by those who know better, spread by the gullible.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #23
                  ROFL - I used the primary definition. Alternative definitions that weren't relevant weren't posted. Particularly *historical* - the discussion was not about historical use of the term.

                  And now - if you are willing to leave off the hissy fit (and even if you aren't) - I deny neither the SCIENTIFIC theory of evolution, nor the evidence of the geological record. There was a time when I accepted micro-evolution, but remained skeptical of macro-evolution. When evidence supporting macro-evolution emerged, I accepted that evidence. I regard the idea that some day, paleontologists find that flying creatures pre-date terrestrial as appealing, but if findings refute the possibility (which hasn't yet been done), I'll accept that the Bible is wrong on the point.
                  You have been wrong on all counts about what I have been saying - and only your own prejudice caused those errors.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    ROFL - I used the primary definition. Alternative definitions that weren't relevant weren't posted. Particularly *historical* - the discussion was not about historical use of the term.
                    The discussion certainly is about historical use of 'abiogenesis', since that is the definition you used when you wrote "Abiogenesis = Spontaneous Generation".

                    And now - if you are willing to leave off the hissy fit (and even if you aren't) - I deny neither the SCIENTIFIC theory of evolution, nor the evidence of the geological record.
                    But you do claim that biologists' rejection of spontaneous generation is relevant to modern ideas of evolution and biogenesis. That is propagating a lie.
                    You have been wrong on all counts about what I have been saying - and only your own prejudice caused those errors.
                    You have shown no error, only an unwillingness to understand.
                    Last edited by Roy; 06-12-2017, 12:31 PM.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The discussion certainly is about historical use of 'abiogenesis', since that is the definition you used when you wrote "Abiogenesis = Spontaneous Generation".
                      I see that you looked up the definition of "abiogenesis" where I looked up "spontaneous generation" - which was clearly indicated in the relevant post, so YOU don't get to lay an accusation of dishonesty.

                      Source: Websters Dictionary



                      Definition of spontaneous generation

                      : a now discredited notion that living organisms spontaneously originate directly from nonliving matter —called also abiogenesis

                      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...s%20generation

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      No mention whatever of an historical use.

                      And the WEBSTERS definition of abiogenesis:


                      Source: Websters

                      Definition of abiogenesis

                      : the origin of life from nonliving matter: such as a : spontaneous generation b : a theory in the evolution of early life on earth: organic molecules and subsequent simple life forms first originated from inorganic substances

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      As to definition B - again it is under the heading of "abiogenesis", where I had checked only spontaneous generation.
                      I'll take it that Websters is using "theory (in evolution)" as meaning "theory" in the every day use definition, rather than the scientific meaning.

                      Again no mention of an historical usage. Nor of a change of use over time. The terms are interchangable according to the definition provided for "spontaneous generation."

                      As to the matter of biology

                      Source: http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Abiogenesis

                      Abiogenesis

                      (Science: study) The study of how life originally arose on the planet, encompasses the ancient belief in the spontaneous generation of life from non living matter.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      This one doesn't refer to "discredited theory" - interesting, and there has been a change over the years: abiogenesis actually only encompasses spontaneous generation, so your point about "historical use" is correct after all.

                      Source: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/abiogenesis


                      1.
                      the now discredited theory that living organisms can arise spontaneously from inanimate matter; spontaneous generation.
                      2.
                      the theory that the earliest life forms on earth developed from nonliving matter.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      results depend on which term is checked - I'll make a note to cross reference in future.

                      None of which addresses the reiterated statements that the Theory of Evolution does not address the origins of life
                      Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/abiogenesis-and-evolution-249875

                      Evolution and evolutionary theory are already confusing enough. Yet, it becomes more complicated when creationists (somebody should tell the author that it isn't the creationists that are the problem - it's the evolution faithers misinforming them) promulgate the mistaken idea that evolution is the same as abiogenesis.

                      Abiogenesis is the theory that life stems from inorganic or inanimate matter -- forms that do not have life. This argument that it is identical to evolution is one way that creationism is touted as being a superior theory to evolution.
                      Origin of Life in Not Evolution

                      The origin of life is certainly an interesting topic, but it is not a part of evolutionary theory. The study of the naturalistic origins of life is called abiogenesis. While scientists have not developed a clear explanation of how life might have developed from nonliving material, that has no impact on evolution.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      And here's one that is part of a religious site's offering

                      Source: http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v11i9e.htm

                      We commonly get email complaints from evolutionists who object to us including abiogenesis as part of the theory of evolution. They claim that the theory of evolution is limited to natural selection, and says nothing about the spontaneous origin of life through natural processes (abiogenesis).

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      That's bad news for you Roy - YECs and the like would rather believe what you have to say about evolution than they would people who know what they're talking about.

                      Here's one from a Christian who knows what he's talking about:
                      Source: Biologos

                      In the last post in this series, we left behind the comfortable confines of evolution as a theory (in the scientific sense) and headed out into one of its “frontier” areas – abiogenesis, the hypothesized transition from chemical “non-life” to life.


                      .....

                      this absolutely crucial RNA enzyme using RNA templates at the center of cellular life was suggestive – suggestive that life once passed through a stage where RNA was the major player in heredity and enzymatic function, rather than the DNA/protein world of the present.

                      In the next post in this series, we’ll explore this proposed “RNA world” – a hypothesis that has gained some experimental support in recent years.
                      - See more at: http://biologos.org/blogs/dennis-ven....AopdkTwt.dpuf

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      And there you have it - so far, just a hypothesis with some experimental support.
                      The SCIENTISTS aren't calling it a theory yet.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Contemporary science does research and consider hypothesis and theories for abiogenesis as valid science, and published in peer reviewed journals.

                        Source: https://phys.org/news/2015-06-evidence-emerges-life.html#jCp


                        In the beginning, there were simple chemicals. And they produced amino acids that eventually became the proteins necessary to create single cells. And the single cells became plants and animals. Recent research is revealing how the primordial soup created the amino acid building blocks, and there is widespread scientific consensus on the evolution from the first cell into plants and animals. But it's still a mystery how the building blocks were first assembled into the proteins that formed the machinery of all cells. Now, two long-time University of North Carolina scientists - Richard Wolfenden, PhD, and Charles Carter, PhD - have shed new light on the transition from building blocks into life some 4 billion years ago.

                        "Our work shows that the close linkage between the physical properties of amino acids, the genetic code, and protein folding was likely essential from the beginning, long before large, sophisticated molecules arrived on the scene," said Carter, professor of biochemistry and biophysics at the UNC School of Medicine. "This close interaction was likely the key factor in the evolution from building blocks to organisms."

                        Their findings, published in companion papers in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, fly in the face of the problematic "RNA world" theory, which posits that RNA - the molecule that today plays roles in coding, regulating, and expressing genes - elevated itself from the primordial soup of amino acids and cosmic chemicals to give rise first to short proteins called peptides and then to single-celled organisms.

                        Wolfenden and Carter argue that RNA did not work alone; in fact, it was no more likely that RNA catalyzed peptide formation than it was for peptides to catalyze RNA formation.
                        The finding adds a new layer to the story of how life evolved billions of years ago.

                        Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-06-eviden...-life.html#jCp

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Abiogenesis is part of ongoing research at UNC near where I live.

                          Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2015/0623/How-can-life-emerge-from-nonliving-matter-UNC-scientists-find-new-evidence



                          How can life emerge from nonliving matter? UNC scientists find new evidence.

                          Charles Carter and Richard Wolfenden, both of the University of North Carolina, have uncovered new evidence of abiogenesis, the process by which life arises from non-living chemical matter. Their study, published Thursday in the Journal of Biological Chemistry, suggests that a single ancient gene may have used each of its opposite DNA strands to code for different chemical catalysts. Those separate catalysts would have both activated amino acids, which then formed proteins – essential to the production of living cells.

                          Researchers say new findings could help answer questions about life’s chemical origins.

                          Where does life come from? Despite years of research, scientists still rack their brains over this most existential question. If the universe did begin with a rapid expansion, per the Big Bang theory, then life as we know it sprung from nonliving matter. How this process, known as abiogenesis, could have occurred is a source of much scientific debate.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            I see that you looked up the definition of "abiogenesis" where I looked up "spontaneous generation" - which was clearly indicated in the relevant post, so YOU don't get to lay an accusation of dishonesty.
                            I didn't accuse you of dishonesty, I highlighted that you were quoting dictionary definitions and deliberately omitting the one that contradicted your claim.
                            Again no mention of an historical usage. Nor of a change of use over time. The terms are interchangable according to the definition provided for "spontaneous generation."
                            This continues to be false. The first definition for "abiogenesis" (the origin of life from nonliving matter: such as a : spontaneous generation) is interchangeable with "spontaneous generation". The second (the origin of life from nonliving matter: such as b : a theory in the evolution of early life on earth: organic molecules and subsequent simple life forms first originated from inorganic substances) is not.

                            The theory of spontaneous generation concerns modern organisms such as mold, mice and moths. These are not organic molecules and subsequent simple life forms.

                            This one doesn't refer to "discredited theory" - interesting, and there has been a change over the years: abiogenesis actually only encompasses spontaneous generation, so your point about "historical use" is correct after all.
                            Is that an admission that "abiogenesis" and "spontaneous generation" are not interchangeable? That your earlier claim about evolution advocates contradicting biologists was false?

                            And that maybe I do know what I'm talking about?
                            Last edited by Roy; 06-13-2017, 06:41 AM.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              I didn't accuse you of dishonesty
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              I see you have dishonestly deleted the other definition of abiogenesis:
                              I didn't accuse you of dishonesty,
                              I posted the definition for "spontaneous generation" not for "abiogenesis." I couldn't have deliberately elided the definition for "abiogenesis" for simple cause that I hadn't posted any definition for abiogenesis at that point.
                              In a later post, I posted the definitions for abiogenesis - which did show that there were differences.

                              'nuff said.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Contemporary scientific specific definition for abiogenesis:

                                Source: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/cheme.htm


                                The Origin of Life:

                                How did life begin? What was the origin of the first carbon-based life on earth?
                                Scientists are proposing various theories for a natural origin of life by a process of abiogenesis (a non-biological production of life) that can be viewed as a chemical evolution from non-life to life. {note: Another meaning of chemical evolution is the natural process, occurring in stars, that forms the nuclei of larger atoms (Li, C, N, O,...) from the smaller nuclei of H and He. }

                                Scientists usually propose a four-stage process of formation for the first life:
                                1A. formation of small organic molecules (amino acids, nucleic acid bases,…),
                                1B. and these combine to make larger biomolecules (proteins, RNA, lipids,…),
                                2A. which self-organized, by a variety of interactions, into a semi-alive system
                                2B. that gradually transformed into a more sophisticated form, a living organism.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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