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Thread: Jehovah's Witnesses translation of John 1

  1. #71
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Not necessarily, I only hold that the parallel passages in Exodus show Moses is "as God" to Pharaoh.


    Yes, humans are referred to as "gods".


    Though I think Psalm 82:1 refers to all humanity, including those to whom Jesus was speaking.


    Well, they are said to die in the Psalm, which leads me to believe this is addressing humans.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Precisely.

    If the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself the Almighty,
    he could not have quoted a verse where human beings are called "gods." In other words, if the Jews were accusing Jesus of being God Almighty, and if he agreed with this charge, he would have said something like "it is as you say" and would then have proceeded to quote a verse from the OT where God calls himself the Almighty and appropriated it to himself.

    So the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself "a god" ( a prophet of God), not God. In other words, the charge was that he was a false prophet. Jesus tells them in verse 34 that he is in fact more excellent than the gods, he is the Son of God, the prophet par excellence (Deut. 18:15), the Messiah.

  2. #72
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    If the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself the Almighty, he could not have quoted a verse where human beings are called "gods."
    But Jesus is making a "how much more" argument, "If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" (Jn 10:35–36)

    In other words, if the Jews were accusing Jesus of being God Almighty, and if he agreed with this charge, he would have said something like "it is as you say" and would then have proceeded to quote a verse from the OT where God calls himself the Almighty and appropriated it to himself.
    Instead Jesus clearly claimed to be God's Son (v. 36) who is one with the Father (v. 30). This is a way of describing the Trinity, which was a new concept to the Jewish people.

    So the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself "a god" ( a prophet of God), not God.
    Well, no, they wouldn't have picked up stones to stone him for that.

    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)

    Jesus tells them in verse 34 that he is in fact more excellent than the gods, he is the Son of God, the prophet par excellence (Deut. 18:15), the Messiah.
    Amen!

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #73
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But Jesus is making a "how much more" argument, "If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" (Jn 10:35–36)


    Instead Jesus clearly claimed to be God's Son (v. 36) who is one with the Father (v. 30).
    kal va-khomer (Argumentum a minori ad maius). In other words the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God (not even calling myself "a god," [which was more offensive to their sensibilities ] !)



    This is a way of describing the Trinity,
    If it was, it was a rather poor way of doing so.


    which was a new concept to the Jewish people.
    I bet, Because it didn't exist in their scriptures. No, there is no Trinity in the context here.


    Well, no, they wouldn't have picked up stones to stone him for that.
    Sure they would. A false prophet (they were convinced Jesus was performing his miracles via the agency of Balzebul and not by God) was to be expeditiously (there and then) stoned to death . But there is nothing in the Jewish law which asserts that someone claiming to be God Himself was to be put to death. The laws of compassion and of pity would then come into play -- take him to the nearest sanitarium.

    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)
    Because you claim to be "a god" (i.e. a prophet of God), as Jesus's response in invoking Psalm 82 proves.

    If the accusation was that Jesus was making himself God Almighty, and most importantly, if Jesus agreed with this accusation , his response at John 10:34 would have been radically different. In fact his actual response contradicts the charge. You see, if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him , he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty and applied it to himself in his defense. So in John 10:34 Jesus would have choose from, say, Exodus 3:16:

    Jesus: " Is it not written in your law, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob ?"

    As is, Jesus uses a verse where the word אלוהימ / θεός does NOT mean God (Almighty). And such a definition of θεός is incredibly hard to find in the OT ! Jesus's choice of verse was very deliberate indeed.

  4. #74
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    ... the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God (not even calling myself "a god," [which was more offensive to their sensibilities ] !)
    The son here, the only son, who is one with the Father. Jesus is saying he is greater than the gods, greater than humans.

    I bet, Because it didn't exist in their scriptures.
    There are lots of indications of plurality in the Godhead in the OT, Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6 are a few such references.

    Sure they would. A false prophet (they were convinced Jesus was performing his miracles via the agency of Balzebul and not by God) was to be expeditiously (there and then) stoned to death.
    But where did they say Jesus was a false prophet?

    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)

    ... if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him , he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty and applied it to himself in his defense.
    "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:29–30)

    "The Father is greater than all, I and the Father are one." Admirably done. And Jesus did not contradict his statement, he replied in effect saying that he is greater than the greatest of humans.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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