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Thread: Jehovah's Witnesses translation of John 1

  1. #61
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
    Hi,
    You wanted to talk about Sharp's when I did not refer to it, so just for you, I updated the paper. I was told by the Admin that I could put the link to the files in my .signature.

    Best Regards
    Georg

    -------
    Signature: https://independent.academia.edu/GeorgKaplin
    sigh, That's not your signature. Your signature can be edited here:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/pr...=editsignature

  2. #62
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Here is what you ask the JW's.


    How many True Gods are there? (The bible teaches there is only one TRUE God and any other God is a false god)

    If Jesus is "A" god, is he a True God or a False God?

    If he is a True God, and there is only one True God, then he must be the same God as Jehovah.

    If he is a false god, then we should not follow him or his teachings.

    One rejoinder that they will use is that Moses is called god in the OT. But he was not. He was said to be "as God"


    Exodus 4:16 “Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.
    Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

    Meaning moses was not "a god" but represented God to the Aaron and Pharaoh. It is figurative. If John 1:1 is translated correctly in their bible, then it is saying Jesus is LITERALLY a god.



    ---

    As far as the translation goes, it is incorrect. Here are a few links for more detailed information:

    https://www.jashow.org/articles/gues...s-and-john-11/
    https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

    https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god
    That (red) is not true. Here's the Septuagint LXX:

    ΚΑΙ εἶπε Κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἰδοὺ δέδωκά σε θεὸν Φαραώ, καὶ ᾿Ααρὼν ὁ ἀδελφός σου ἔσται σου προφήτης·
    Literally "Behold, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. " Had the text used the adjective ὡς ("as") then you would be right: "....ὡς θεὸν Φαραώ,.."But as you can see, there is no such adjective.

    So, was Moses a true god or a false god ?

    To be sure above is a silly question, since the word θεός in the bible (especially when it is anarthrous) has a relatively wide range and function . Sometimes it refers to the only true God (that is to the Father), at other times to human representatives of God (as in John 10:34), yet at other times to Angels in heaven (Psalms 8:5, Hebrew אֱלֹהִים , LXX ἄγγελοι), and even to Satan (2 Cor. 4:4).

  3. #63
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    easily handled. In psalm 82, which Jesus is quoting (I believe sarcastically) the verse make it clear that "elohim" (gods) refers to judges and leaders and they are indeed "false gods" because the psalm goes on to say "you will die like men" - God was chastising the leaders saying that while they were like gods, they would die regardless because of their failures to do right.

    Here is the JW (NWT) translation of Psalm 82

    God takes his place in the divine assembly;*+ In the middle of the gods* he judges:+ 2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice+ And show partiality to the wicked?+ (Selah) 3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.+ Render justice to the helpless and destitute.+ 4 Rescue the lowly and the poor; Save them out of the hand of the wicked.” 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;+ They are walking about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.+ 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*+ All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do;+ And like any other prince you will fall!’”


    I don't think they would want to associate Jesus with these guys.
    You have completely mis-understood and corrupted the psalm. Here is the Greek:


    Ψαλμὸς τῷ ᾿Ασάφ. - Ο ΘΕΟΣ ἔστη ἐν συναγωγῇ θεῶν, ἐν μέσῳ δὲ θεοὺς διακρινεῖ. 2 ἕως πότε κρίνετε ἀδικίαν καὶ πρόσωπα ἁμαρτωλῶν λαμβάνετε; (διάψαλμα). 3 κρίνατε ὀρφανῷ καὶ πτωχῷ, ταπεινὸν καὶ πένητα δικαιώσατε· 4 ἐξέλεσθε πένητα καὶ πτωχόν, ἐκ χειρὸς ἁμαρτωλοῦ ῥύσασθε αὐτόν. 5 οὐκ ἔγνωσαν οὐδὲ συνῆκαν, ἐν σκότει διαπορεύονται· σαλευθήσονται πάντα τὰ θεμέλια τῆς γῆς. 6 ἐγὼ εἶπα· θεοί ἐστε καὶ υἱοὶ ῾Υψίστου πάντες· 7 ὑμεῖς δὲ ὡς ἄνθρωποι ἀποθνήσκετε καὶ ὡς εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων πίπτετε. 8 ἀνάστα, ὁ Θεός, κρίνων τὴν γῆν, ὅτι σὺ κατακληρονομήσεις ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ἔθνεσι.

    Here is the translation:

    1 [A Psalm for Asaph.] God stands in the assembly of the gods, in their midst he judges . 2 How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? Pause. 3 Judge the orphan and poor: do justice to the low and needy. 4 Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They know not, nor understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all [of you] children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

    Verse 1, God stands in the assembly of the gods and in their midst (i.e. of the gods) he judges.

    Why would God stand in the midst of false Judges ? This picture here is of a Sovereign surrounded by His servants and Who is meeting out judgment. Whoever these gods are, they are not "false" or unworthy. They are either the Angels of heaven, or the righteous Saints, or the prophets of God.


    The Hebrew verifies the LXX Greek here as well:

    Psalm 82:1 מִזְמֹור לְאָסָף אֱֽלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 07-03-2019 at 05:58 PM.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Literally "Behold, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. " Had the text used the adjective ὡς ("as") then you would be right: "....ὡς θεὸν Φαραώ,.."But as you can see, there is no such adjective.
    Yet we read in the parallel passage (Ex. 4:16) "σὺ δὲ αὐτῷ ἔσῃ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν", or in the Hebrew "תִּֽהְיֶה־לֹּ֥ו לֵֽאלֹהִֽים", translated therefore "you will be as God," and similarly in Ex. 7:1.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #65
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Why would God stand in the midst of false Judges ? This picture here is of a Sovereign surrounded by His servants and Who is meeting out judgment. Whoever these gods are, they are not "false" or unworthy. They are either the Angels of heaven, or the righteous Saints, or the prophets of God.
    But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  6. #66
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yet we read in the parallel passage (Ex. 4:16) "σὺ δὲ αὐτῷ ἔσῃ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν", or in the Hebrew "תִּֽהְיֶה־לֹּ֥ו לֵֽאלֹהִֽים", translated therefore "you will be as God," and similarly in Ex. 7:1.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God. Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god. The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God. Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god. The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Well, all prophets die and then go to heaven. The prophets Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus , did they not ?

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God.
    Or "you will be as God".

    Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god.
    But this clearly echoes Exodus 4:16, so the meaning would be the same.

    The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.
    I recognize that Elohim / Theos can mean a god (or human judges, in the case of Elohim).

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill
    But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.
    Well, all prophets die and then go to heaven. The prophets Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus , did they not ?
    Yes, but they died, so again this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #69
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Or "you will be as God".


    But this clearly echoes Exodus 4:16, so the meaning would be the same.



    Lee
    Don't see how that helps you ? It would then be that when scripture says to someone "you're a god" it just means that they are as a god.



    I recognize that Elohim / Theos can mean a god (or human judges, in the case of Elohim).
    According to Jesus's interpretation, the "gods" of Psalm 82:1 are those human beings to whom the word of God came. And who are these folks ? They are not the generic judges of Israel. Perhaps the following scriptures might help:

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 13:1


    καὶ ἀνέστη Δαυιδ τὸ πρωί καὶ λόγος κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Γαδ τὸνπροφήτην τὸν ὁρῶντα Δαυιδ λέγων
    2 Samuel 24:11


    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων
    1 Kings 12:22


    καὶ ἐγένετο ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Ηλιου
    1 Kings 17:8


    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με ἐκ δευτέρου λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς καὶεἶπα λέβητα ὑποκαιόμενον καὶ τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ προσώπου βορρᾶ
    Jeremiah 1:13

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς Ιερεμια καὶ εἶπαβακτηρίαν καρυΐνην
    Jeremiah 1:11

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ησαιαν λέγων
    Isaiah 38:4

    καὶ ἐγενήθη λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Jeremiah 13:8

    καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὰς ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 3:16

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 11:14

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου ἐν χειρὶ Αγγαιου τοῦ προφήτου λέγων
    Haggai 1:3

    αὐτὸς ἀπέστησεν τὸ ὅριον Ισραηλ ἀπὸ εἰσόδου Αιμαθ ἕως τῆςθαλάσσης τῆς Αραβα κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ ὃ ἐλάλησεν ἐν χειρὶδούλου αὐτοῦ Ιωνα υἱοῦ Αμαθι τοῦ προφήτου τοῦ ἐκ Γεθχοβερ
    2 Kings 14:25

    τῇ τετράδι καὶ εἰκάδι τῷ ἑνδεκάτῳ μηνί οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ μὴν Σαβατ ἐν τῷδευτέρῳ ἔτει ἐπὶ Δαρείου ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ζαχαριαν τὸν τοῦΒαραχιου υἱὸν Αδδω τὸν προφήτην λέγων
    Zechariah 1:7

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 21:18

    καὶ ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Σαμουηλ λέγων
    1 Samuel 15:10


    καὶ ἐγένετο ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ λόγος κυρίου λέγων αἷμα εἰς πλῆθος ἐξέχεας καὶπολέμους μεγάλους ἐποίησας οὐκ οἰκοδομήσεις οἶκον τῷ ὀνόματί μου ὅτιαἵματα πολλὰ ἐξέχεας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐναντίον μου
    1 Ch. 22:8

    καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἐκεῗ εἰς τὸ σπήλαιον καὶ κατέλυσεν ἐκεῗ καὶ ἰδοὺ ῥῆμακυρίου πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπεν τί σὺ ἐνταῦθα Ηλιου
    1 Kings 19:9






    ἐπ᾽ ἀρχιερέων Ἅννα καὶ Καϊάφα ἐγένετο ῥῆμα θεοῦ ἐπὶ Ἰωάννην τὸντοῦ Ζαχαρίου υἱὸν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ
    Luke 3:2

    καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν καθημένων ἐπὶ τῆς τραπέζης καὶ ἐγένετο λόγοςκυρίου πρὸς τὸν προφήτην τὸν ἐπιστρέψαντα αὐτὸν
    1 Kings 13:20

    etc., etc.
    See it ? ....The "gods" in Psalm 82:1 are the OT prophets, according to Jesus.


    Yes, but they died, so again this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

    Blessings,
    That's eisegesis. I think you should read that psalm again... Besides, the judges didn't die ?
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 08-24-2019 at 02:30 PM.

  10. #70
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Don't see how that helps you ? It would then be that when scripture says to someone "you're a god" it just means that they are as a god.
    Not necessarily, I only hold that the parallel passages in Exodus show Moses is "as God" to Pharaoh.

    According to Jesus's interpretation, the "gods" of Psalm 82:1 are those human beings to whom the word of God came. And who are these folks ? They are not the generic judges of Israel.
    Yes, humans are referred to as "gods".

    See it ? ....The "gods" in Psalm 82:1 are the OT prophets, according to Jesus.
    Though I think Psalm 82:1 refers to all humanity, including those to whom Jesus was speaking.

    Besides, the judges didn't die ?
    Well, they are said to die in the Psalm, which leads me to believe this is addressing humans.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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