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Jehovah's Witnesses translation of John 1

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  • #16
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      He bit.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        So, I told the lady that the next time she showed up at my door I would have something in writing for her to read.
        From my experience with them, they probably won't read it. I think they are "encouraged" not to read anything contrary to their beliefs, the same way Mormons are. It's better to memorize the key points and any Bible references in your materials, and bring it up in conversation.
        Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
          From my experience with them, they probably won't read it. I think they are "encouraged" not to read anything contrary to their beliefs, the same way Mormons are. It's better to memorize the key points and any Bible references in your materials, and bring it up in conversation.
          You are probably right, but at least I will have done my part and maybe they will think I am a lost cause and stop dropping by.

          Comment


          • #20
            If all else fails, make an appointment to meet them at say 2:00 pm Saturday, then make sure you get some Mormons to drop by at the same time. I haven't seen either at my place in the more than thirty years since I did it.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              It's certainly not "a god," but translating simply "God" is also misleading unless the reader is taking it in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity. While this implies a philosophical framework that could be misleading, something like "of the same nature as God" is probably what was meant. The obvious translation is "divine," but that has lots of possible misunderstandings. NEB says "What God was, the Word was."

              The problem is that the previous phrase also speaks of the Word is distinct from God. This combination of distinction and unity is what caused the discussions leading up to the Trinity.
              Last edited by hedrick; 06-11-2017, 10:26 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Sorry Hedrick, but a pagan speaker of Koine Greek could just as readily have said "theos en o ares" and it would be wholly valid to translate it as "Ares was (had continuing existence as) a god." "Divine" would be θειος - not used John 1:1, the word there is θεος: god. So -
                John 1:1 ambiguous:
                John 1:3 "all came to be through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to be" still ambiguous - theoretically, "him" could be either the Word or God.
                10 "the world came to be through him," unambiguous - and disambiguates the prior verses: the Word, not God, created all. (grammatically)
                Then Philippians 2:5-6: "Jesus Christ who being (subsisting as) God in form,"
                Phil 2:6 "considered existence as God not booty (a treasure to which one has lawful right)": identity as God declared
                John 1:14 - the Word made flesh
                And of course Hebrews 1, which spends a lot of time explaining that the Son is God - directly declaring him "o theos," in verse 8.
                10 declares that he laid the foundations of the Earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.
                2:5 the world to come is not subjected to angels - 8 but everything is subjected to him
                2:9 shows him being made for a time lower than the angels,

                All up - the ambiguity of John 1:1 is thoroughly, and through a number of iterations, disambiguated.
                Last edited by tabibito; 06-11-2017, 11:31 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  The Word "God" is a relative term is Scripture.
                  Sometime in The Bible it refers to Almighty God, Pagan god(s), humans, and angels.
                  Divine beings from a Biblical view, thus God's view.
                  So as the can only be one Almighty God and as John 1 refers to two persons then one must be the lesser and one the greater, "God" and "a god."
                  BU

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Sorry Hedrick, but a pagan speaker of Koine Greek could just as readily have said "theos en o ares" and it would be wholly valid to translate it as "Ares was (had continuing existence as) a god." "Divine" would be θειος - not used John 1:1, the word there is θεος: god. So -
                    John 1:1 ambiguous:
                    John 1:3 "all came to be through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to be" still ambiguous - theoretically, "him" could be either the Word or God.
                    10 "the world came to be through him," unambiguous - and disambiguates the prior verses: the Word, not God, created all. (grammatically)
                    Then Philippians 2:5-6: "Jesus Christ who being (subsisting as) God in form,"
                    Phil 2:6 "considered existence as God not booty (a treasure to which one has lawful right)": identity as God declared
                    John 1:14 - the Word made flesh
                    And of course Hebrews 1, which spends a lot of time explaining that the Son is God - directly declaring him "o theos," in verse 8.
                    10 declares that he laid the foundations of the Earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.
                    2:5 the world to come is not subjected to angels - 8 but everything is subjected to him
                    2:9 shows him being made for a time lower than the angels,

                    All up - the ambiguity of John 1:1 is thoroughly, and through a number of iterations, disambiguated.
                    I know this is an old thread, but what convinces you that Jesus is called θεος at Hebrews 1:8?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hebrews 1: 8 προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου.

                      Here, the Son (τον υιον) is declared (ο Θεος) God - with the definite article to make the point obvious.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Hebrews 1: 8 προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου.

                        Here, the Son (τον υιον) is declared (ο Θεος) God - with the definite article to make the point obvious.
                        I agree that the definite article is key to identifying θεος at Hebrews 1:8. How do you arrive at the Son? The article can be either vocative or nominative.
                        Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 05-18-2019, 12:18 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          to the son he says your (σου) throne the god endures forever. to the son he says your (σου) throne O God endures forever.
                          Context shows [through "your" (σου)] that the "o" is direct-address/vocative.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            to the son he says your (σου) throne the god endures forever. to the son he says your (σου) throne O God endures forever.
                            Context shows [through "your" (σου)] that the "o" is direct-address/vocative.
                            I have strong grammatical evidence that decisively identifies "God" at Hebrews 1:8 as the Son. It is based on the anaphoric article. You will need an intermediate Greek grammar for this, preferably Wallace.

                            The Greek article developed from the pronoun, being a later addition to the language. Apollonius Dyscolus documented this in the second century.

                            Another good Greek grammar is Blass-Debrunner-Funk (BDF). In its introduction to the article, it says:

                            Introduction. ὁ, ἡ, τό as article with appellatives has double meaning as in classical usage, individual and generic: ὁ ἄνθρωπος (1) ‘the known, particular, previously mentioned man’ ... (1) is also known as the ‘anaphoric’ use (since Apollonius Dyscolus ii AD) because there is reference back (ἀναφορά) to what is known or assumed to be known: (BDF §252)
                            What this means is that when a noun is found in Greek and then is found again in a discourse, the article is inserted to signal that that it is being identified with the previous mention of that noun. It is a fact that most definite articles are anaphoric when they are individualizing articles like at Hebrews 1:8-9.

                            Since the article with "God" in verse 9 is anaphoric, it identifies θεὸς in verse 8 as the God of the king. The objective grammar trumps a subjective contextual argument every time.

                            Think of the definite article in the same way you think of a pronoun. If one finds a pronoun that matches a noun it directly follows in case, number and gender, the first interpretation is always that it refers to that noun, right? It is considered the antecedent.

                            Well, the definite article is like that but more specific. It modifies a noun in addition to matching in case number and gender. So it is definitive in disambiguating the antecedent.
                            Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 05-19-2019, 08:40 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
                              I have strong grammatical evidence that decisively identifies "God" at Hebrews 1:8 as the Son. It is based on the anaphoric article. You will need an intermediate Greek grammar for this, preferably Wallace.

                              The Greek article developed from the pronoun, being a later addition to the language. Apollonius Dyscolus documented this in the second century.

                              Another good Greek grammar is Blass-Debrunner-Funk (BDF). In its introduction to the article, it says:



                              What this means is that when a noun is found in Greek and then is found again in a discourse, the article is inserted to signal that that it is being identified with the previous mention of that noun. It is a fact that most definite articles are anaphoric when they are individualizing articles like at Hebrews 1:8-9.

                              Since the article with "God" in verse 9 is anaphoric, it identifies θεὸς in verse 8 as the God of the king. The objective grammar trumps a subjective contextual argument every time.

                              Think of the definite article in the same way you think of a pronoun. If one finds a pronoun that matches a noun it directly follows in case, number and gender, the first interpretation is always that it refers to that noun, right? It is considered the antecedent.

                              Well, the definite article is like that but more specific. It modifies a noun in addition to matching in case number and gender. So it is definitive in disambiguating the antecedent.
                              δια τουτο εχρισεν σε ο θεος ο θεος σου ελαιον αγαλλιασεως παρα τους μετοχους σου
                              through (because of) - this - (he) anointed - you (acc) - ... - god - ... - god - of you - olive oil (acc) - of joy

                              Because of this, God anointed you (acc); your God [smeared] oil (acc) of your exaltation ... [[[THAT introduces a new point for consideration]]]

                              Clause 1: The verb needs a nominative noun to play from. "God" is the only candidate.
                              Clause 2: no explicit verb, draws on clause 1 for the verb (smeared ⇦ anointed)

                              you relates to the god of verse 8,
                              the God (2 occurrences) of verse 9 can't be the same God as the one in verse 8: The passage doesn't say that God is anointing himself.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                δια τουτο εχρισεν σε ο θεος ο θεος σου ελαιον αγαλλιασεως παρα τους μετοχους σου
                                through (because of) - this - (he) anointed - you (acc) - ... - god - ... - god - of you - olive oil (acc) - of joy

                                Because of this, God anointed you (acc); your God [smeared] oil (acc) of your exaltation ... [[[THAT introduces a new point for consideration]]]

                                Clause 1: The verb needs a nominative noun to play from. "God" is the only candidate.
                                Clause 2: no explicit verb, draws on clause 1 for the verb (smeared ⇦ anointed)

                                you relates to the god of verse 8,
                                the God (2 occurrences) of verse 9 can't be the same God as the one in verse 8: The passage doesn't say that God is anointing himself.
                                I have made a grammatical argument, not a mere contextual one. You have not addressed the anaphora. Θεος is either vocative or nominative. Either "Your throne O' God" or "God is your throne." The anaphoric article makes the latter the only grammatical alternative. As a matter of fact, there is not a single example of an articular noun, when it has an individuating article and when it follows the same articular noun in the same or previous verse, that does not identify the same person or thing.

                                Now if you insist on Jesus being called God in verse 8, what that means is that the God who anoints Jesus, the Father, is being identified as the Son. That is modalism.

                                That's a context to take seriously!

                                Are you a modalist?

                                Comment

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