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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.
This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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Jehovah's Witnesses translation of John 1
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostSo, I told the lady that the next time she showed up at my door I would have something in writing for her to read.Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.
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Originally posted by QuantaFille View PostFrom my experience with them, they probably won't read it. I think they are "encouraged" not to read anything contrary to their beliefs, the same way Mormons are. It's better to memorize the key points and any Bible references in your materials, and bring it up in conversation.
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If all else fails, make an appointment to meet them at say 2:00 pm Saturday, then make sure you get some Mormons to drop by at the same time. I haven't seen either at my place in the more than thirty years since I did it.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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It's certainly not "a god," but translating simply "God" is also misleading unless the reader is taking it in the context of the doctrine of the Trinity. While this implies a philosophical framework that could be misleading, something like "of the same nature as God" is probably what was meant. The obvious translation is "divine," but that has lots of possible misunderstandings. NEB says "What God was, the Word was."
The problem is that the previous phrase also speaks of the Word is distinct from God. This combination of distinction and unity is what caused the discussions leading up to the Trinity.Last edited by hedrick; 06-11-2017, 10:26 AM.
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Sorry Hedrick, but a pagan speaker of Koine Greek could just as readily have said "theos en o ares" and it would be wholly valid to translate it as "Ares was (had continuing existence as) a god." "Divine" would be θειος - not used John 1:1, the word there is θεος: god. So -
John 1:1 ambiguous:
John 1:3 "all came to be through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to be" still ambiguous - theoretically, "him" could be either the Word or God.
10 "the world came to be through him," unambiguous - and disambiguates the prior verses: the Word, not God, created all. (grammatically)
Then Philippians 2:5-6: "Jesus Christ who being (subsisting as) God in form,"
Phil 2:6 "considered existence as God not booty (a treasure to which one has lawful right)": identity as God declared
John 1:14 - the Word made flesh
And of course Hebrews 1, which spends a lot of time explaining that the Son is God - directly declaring him "o theos," in verse 8.
10 declares that he laid the foundations of the Earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.
2:5 the world to come is not subjected to angels - 8 but everything is subjected to him
2:9 shows him being made for a time lower than the angels,
All up - the ambiguity of John 1:1 is thoroughly, and through a number of iterations, disambiguated.Last edited by tabibito; 06-11-2017, 11:31 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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The Word "God" is a relative term is Scripture.
Sometime in The Bible it refers to Almighty God, Pagan god(s), humans, and angels.
Divine beings from a Biblical view, thus God's view.
So as the can only be one Almighty God and as John 1 refers to two persons then one must be the lesser and one the greater, "God" and "a god."
BU
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSorry Hedrick, but a pagan speaker of Koine Greek could just as readily have said "theos en o ares" and it would be wholly valid to translate it as "Ares was (had continuing existence as) a god." "Divine" would be θειος - not used John 1:1, the word there is θεος: god. So -
John 1:1 ambiguous:
John 1:3 "all came to be through him, and apart from him not even one thing came to be" still ambiguous - theoretically, "him" could be either the Word or God.
10 "the world came to be through him," unambiguous - and disambiguates the prior verses: the Word, not God, created all. (grammatically)
Then Philippians 2:5-6: "Jesus Christ who being (subsisting as) God in form,"
Phil 2:6 "considered existence as God not booty (a treasure to which one has lawful right)": identity as God declared
John 1:14 - the Word made flesh
And of course Hebrews 1, which spends a lot of time explaining that the Son is God - directly declaring him "o theos," in verse 8.
10 declares that he laid the foundations of the Earth and that the heavens are the work of his hands.
2:5 the world to come is not subjected to angels - 8 but everything is subjected to him
2:9 shows him being made for a time lower than the angels,
All up - the ambiguity of John 1:1 is thoroughly, and through a number of iterations, disambiguated.
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Hebrews 1: 8 προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου.
Here, the Son (τον υιον) is declared (ο Θεος) God - with the definite article to make the point obvious.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostHebrews 1: 8 προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου.
Here, the Son (τον υιον) is declared (ο Θεος) God - with the definite article to make the point obvious.Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 05-18-2019, 12:18 PM.
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to the son he says your (σου) throne the god endures forever. to the son he says your (σου) throne O God endures forever.
Context shows [through "your" (σου)] that the "o" is direct-address/vocative.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Postto the son he says your (σου) throne the god endures forever. to the son he says your (σου) throne O God endures forever.
Context shows [through "your" (σου)] that the "o" is direct-address/vocative.
The Greek article developed from the pronoun, being a later addition to the language. Apollonius Dyscolus documented this in the second century.
Another good Greek grammar is Blass-Debrunner-Funk (BDF). In its introduction to the article, it says:
What this means is that when a noun is found in Greek and then is found again in a discourse, the article is inserted to signal that that it is being identified with the previous mention of that noun. It is a fact that most definite articles are anaphoric when they are individualizing articles like at Hebrews 1:8-9.
Since the article with "God" in verse 9 is anaphoric, it identifies θεὸς in verse 8 as the God of the king. The objective grammar trumps a subjective contextual argument every time.
Think of the definite article in the same way you think of a pronoun. If one finds a pronoun that matches a noun it directly follows in case, number and gender, the first interpretation is always that it refers to that noun, right? It is considered the antecedent.
Well, the definite article is like that but more specific. It modifies a noun in addition to matching in case number and gender. So it is definitive in disambiguating the antecedent.Last edited by Georg Kaplin; 05-19-2019, 08:40 AM.
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Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View PostI have strong grammatical evidence that decisively identifies "God" at Hebrews 1:8 as the Son. It is based on the anaphoric article. You will need an intermediate Greek grammar for this, preferably Wallace.
The Greek article developed from the pronoun, being a later addition to the language. Apollonius Dyscolus documented this in the second century.
Another good Greek grammar is Blass-Debrunner-Funk (BDF). In its introduction to the article, it says:
What this means is that when a noun is found in Greek and then is found again in a discourse, the article is inserted to signal that that it is being identified with the previous mention of that noun. It is a fact that most definite articles are anaphoric when they are individualizing articles like at Hebrews 1:8-9.
Since the article with "God" in verse 9 is anaphoric, it identifies θεὸς in verse 8 as the God of the king. The objective grammar trumps a subjective contextual argument every time.
Think of the definite article in the same way you think of a pronoun. If one finds a pronoun that matches a noun it directly follows in case, number and gender, the first interpretation is always that it refers to that noun, right? It is considered the antecedent.
Well, the definite article is like that but more specific. It modifies a noun in addition to matching in case number and gender. So it is definitive in disambiguating the antecedent.
through (because of) - this - (he) anointed - you (acc) - ... - god - ... - god - of you - olive oil (acc) - of joy
Because of this, God anointed you (acc); your God [smeared] oil (acc) of your exaltation ... [[[THAT introduces a new point for consideration]]]
Clause 1: The verb needs a nominative noun to play from. "God" is the only candidate.
Clause 2: no explicit verb, draws on clause 1 for the verb (smeared ⇦ anointed)
you relates to the god of verse 8,
the God (2 occurrences) of verse 9 can't be the same God as the one in verse 8: The passage doesn't say that God is anointing himself.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Postδια τουτο εχρισεν σε ο θεος ο θεος σου ελαιον αγαλλιασεως παρα τους μετοχους σου
through (because of) - this - (he) anointed - you (acc) - ... - god - ... - god - of you - olive oil (acc) - of joy
Because of this, God anointed you (acc); your God [smeared] oil (acc) of your exaltation ... [[[THAT introduces a new point for consideration]]]
Clause 1: The verb needs a nominative noun to play from. "God" is the only candidate.
Clause 2: no explicit verb, draws on clause 1 for the verb (smeared ⇦ anointed)
you relates to the god of verse 8,
the God (2 occurrences) of verse 9 can't be the same God as the one in verse 8: The passage doesn't say that God is anointing himself.
Now if you insist on Jesus being called God in verse 8, what that means is that the God who anoints Jesus, the Father, is being identified as the Son. That is modalism.
That's a context to take seriously!
Are you a modalist?
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