Why does Shunyadragon believe in God?

[shunyadragon]

I forgot to take up with you "Why does Shunyadragon believe in God?"


The way I see it, when the question is asked why anyone believes in God, there has got to be a common concept between the person asking the question and the person the question is directed to.

Otherwise they will be thinking and talking past each other's head, and that is a waste of time and trouble.


Between you and me, Shuny, we are agreed I presume that you and I have the common concept of God in His fundamental idea in relation to the universe as namely:

Maker of everything that is not God Himself.


The next items to take up then are concerned with the very grounds for believing in the existence of God.

What are the grounds for believing in God or even knowing that God exists, not only believing.

With atheists it is very crucially required that there be evidence for God's existence.

That is also very important for theists, namely, evidence for God's existence.

But there are also emotional factors in man's heart with theists, namely, like the following sentiments:

1. Need for a consistent harmonious worldview possible only with the existence of God as defined above.

2. Need for assistance from God Who is all powerful for being the maker of everything.

3. Need to have a father in heaven to whom man can relate to like his father on earth.

4. For people with a conscience, need to seek forgiveness from the transcendental judge of all human acts.

5. And need for a life after the present one which man hopes for as man does not welcome total extinction in death.

In brief, God is the explanation in the ultimate terms for everything that man seeks an answer for to the questions why, how, when, where, and by what means, etc.




Gerry

OK post!!

[Sparko]

Done read the posts.

No. you mean "dodge" not "done"

Please Shuny. Please answer the question.

If you don't like how I phrased the question, how about how Vivian did?

Shuny, do you believe that God or the creator of the universe has Awareness, or has Will and or Desire ?

[Vivian]

No. you mean "dodge" not "done"

Please Shuny. Please answer the question.

If you don't like how I phrased the question, how about how Vivian did?

Shuny, do you believe that God or the creator of the universe has Awareness, or has Will and or Desire ?

Sparko,

I jumped the gun in giving you words with which to harass Frank, and ask that you stop using them to do so.

I was moved by Gerry's post above - something in my heart said that a true belief in God cannot be explained to another person, for true belief comes from this secret place within us. In fact when we talk evidence and our belief in evidence, we are not talking about a belief in God - we just talking mental ideas and concepts, swirling around what we feel deeply within.

So I wish to offer you that you are asking Frank something very personal. He gave the answer he felt to give, and why don't we let him be?

Shalom!

Viv

[Sparko]

Sparko,

I jumped the gun in giving you words with which to harass Frank, and ask that you stop using them to do so.

I was moved by Gerry's post above - something in my heart said that a true belief in God cannot be explained to another person, for true belief comes from this secret place within us. In fact when we talk evidence and our belief in evidence, we are not talking about a belief in God - we just talking mental ideas and concepts, swirling around what we feel deeply within.

So I wish to offer you that you are asking Frank something very personal. He gave the answer he felt to give, and why don't we let him be?

Shalom!

Viv

because he is posting in a public place. He is being vague and dodgy in his answers and all I want is a clear answer. many other members and the staff want clear answers too. The fact that he refuses to give any is in a way an answer, but I want to give him every chance to clarify. If I am wrong about him, I want to know. I didn't start this thread, Adrift did. He started it on his own and wants to know too. If Shuny wants to remain private about his beliefs he shouldn't be posting in a public forum, and he shouldn't be questioning the beliefs of others, yet he does so regularly. Even you felt you had a right to join this thread and interpret what Shuny meant, based on what YOU believe. then you interpreted what I meant (and you got it right). This is a public place.

[Vivian]

because he is posting in a public place. He is being vague and dodgy in his answers and all I want is a clear answer. many other members and the staff want clear answers too. The fact that he refuses to give any is in a way an answer, but I want to give him every chance to clarify. If I am wrong about him, I want to know. I didn't start this thread, Adrift did. He started it on his own and wants to know too. If Shuny wants to remain private about his beliefs he shouldn't be posting in a public forum, and he shouldn't be questioning the beliefs of others, yet he does so regularly. Even you felt you had a right to join this thread and interpret what Shuny meant, based on what YOU believe. then you interpreted what I meant (and you got it right). This is a public place.

Yes, indeed. And no matter what Shuny says, you and others will interpret it according to what you believe. True Belief is from God and is sacred and holy, thus I understand that while we participate in such a public arena, we are repelled against sharing what is sacred and holy.

Blessings.

Viv

[shunyadragon]

No. you mean "dodge" not "done"

Please Shuny. Please answer the question.

If you don't like how I phrased the question, how about how Vivian did?

Shuny, do you believe that God or the creator of the universe has Awareness, or has Will and or Desire ?

I am through with your Lillipucian hoop jumping seer. Read the posts.

[gerry]

I like to request Sparko and Vivian to tell me what God do they want me to profess.

I know my Apostles' Creed and I read my Bible.


Please tell me what more of God you want me to profess.



What do I know about God certainly know from the reason God has endowed me with and every human being?

Here: God is the maker of everything that is not Himself, in the universe where we live in and are part and parcel of.

He is a person just like us human beings but of a degree superior in 'quantity' and in quality to us, to the nth degree.


Now, I will say something that might be objectionable to Sparko and Vivian, namely:

God has everything He needs to be God, maker of everything in the universe that is not God, including the universe -- He himself is a part and parcel of the universe, in that portion which is the uncreated universe (that means God Himself).

But I will say that I cannot see that God has to be infinite, not in the sense that He has no limits at all, as a matter of fact He is limited to existence which is bounded by the border edges of non-existence, His existence is His essence and nature; God cannot not exist, that is His limitation.

That should take care of all the paradoxes attendant to the idea that God is infinite, besides for me the whole concept of infinity is not any valid concept insofar as human intelligence is concerned, and that is the only kind of intelligence that is needed and is relevant in human thinking and discourse.

Shuny, can you be more specific and in a few words tell me what is God for you aside from creator of the universe that portion that is created -- for I say that the portion that is not created is God Himself.


You see Shuny, Christians have the practice of issuing a statement of faith to distinguish themselves from other Christians, and in each statement of faith a scholar can see that it is similar to other statements of faith, except in what I would call non-essential matters like baptism by sprinkling or pouring of water on the head or by immersion in a body of water which can be in a small man-made pool or in the sea or in a river or in a lake.


Are you Shuny some registered member of the what I might call Baha'i International which is I guess represented by this website which has a socalled United Nations Office:
http://bic.org/logo3.png
http://www.bic.org/

Do you at least have a personal statement of faith as representing your own kind and way of being an adherent of the Baha'i religion?



Gerry

[shunyadragon]

Are you Shuny some registered member of the what I might call Baha'i International which is I guess represented by this website which has a so called United Nations Office:
http://bic.org/logo3.png
http://www.bic.org/

These two sources you cite are representative of the non-governmental affiliation of the Baha'i Faith with the UN. The following site better represents the Baha'i Faith and what the Baha'is believe. http://www.bahai.org/

Yes, I am a registered Baha'i with the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States.

Do you at least have a personal statement of faith as representing your own kind and way of being an adherent of the Baha'i religion?



Gerry

I do not remember the exact wording of the pledge, but it basically expresses one's belief in the principles of the Baha'i Faith (see above website). the belief that Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this age, and the recognition of Abdul'baha his son, and Shoghi Effendi his grand son as Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice (an elected body of nine at the Baha'i International Center in Haifa, Isreal) as the authority for the Baha'i Faith today.

[gerry]

[...]

I do not remember the exact wording of the pledge, but it basically expresses one's belief in the principles of the Baha'i Faith (see above website). the belief that Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this age, and the recognition of Abdul'baha his son, and Shoghi Effendi his grand son as Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice (an elected body of nine at the Baha'i International Center in Haifa, Isreal) as the authority for the Baha'i Faith today.

Sparko and Vivian, unless I am mistaken, are eager to know what more you know or believe about God aside from professing that He is the creator of the universe -- am I correct?


But you do agree with my description of God as a person like ourselves human persons but superior to the nth degree to us.

You keep telling them to read the posts I understand at least in this thread.

What about you telling them in a few words exactly whether God is as Gen: 1.1 puts it, "in the beginning God made heaven and earth," and also the Apostles' Creed of Christians states that God is the "Father almighty creator of heaven and earth."



About "Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this age," that sounds familiar to the self-proclamation of Mohammad that he is the last messenger of Allah for the last times or at least for his times.

That is all similar to the Christian doctrine that God the Father sent God the Son in a human person i.e. incarnated as Jesus Christ to save mankind from sin.


So, Christians, Baha'i adherents, and Muslims do have a common recurring concept about their founders are messengers from God to mankind.

Of course Christians will insist that Christians are different in that the messenger is God Himself although in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God, Who took on flesh becoming perfect man and perfect God, etc.


What is my point here?

Time for us all believers in one God even Trinity in Persons to form a world council of monotheists for our common concerns, otherwise godless peoples might install again their godless regimes to promise and to attempt to bring about utopia for mankind on earth by all kinds of even arbitrary and genocidal killing of fellow humans who are useless to their experiments of bringing about utopia by the technology founded upon the principle of the survival of the fittest meaning of the most ruthless.

Of course they had failed with their godless communism ideology which for almost half a century succeeded to dominate half of mankind; but the old guards died and the new leaders saw through it all, it was all unworkable, and one after another godless communist regimes fell like domino decks.




Gerry

[Vivian]

Hi Gerry!

I am considered Christian(other) here because some of my thoughts about God are a bit unorthodox. We might put me somewhere in between Frank (Shuny) and Sparko.

Sparko and Vivian, unless I am mistaken, are eager to know what more you know or believe about God aside from professing that He is the creator of the universe -- am I correct?

Like Shuny, I refer to God as the Creator and Source. Source (in and through we have our being, in through and by were all things created) is an important differentiation. I do not believe that God is here and creation is there, but that creation poured through God, so that if we go back to our Source, the beginning of the beginnings, we will find God.

But you do agree with my description of God as a person like ourselves human persons but superior to the nth degree to us.

In a sense yes, and in another no. The reason for both answers is that we have no idea what and who we are are. Hence we are so miserable, asleep in the darkness, lost not knowing which end is up, or rather which way to the darkness and which way to the Light or our Source of being. If we knew who were are, then we would know who God is and we would see that he is like us, and we like him.

2 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

But while we see darkly I would say no, God is not a person like us, or like what we perceive of ourselves in the dark.

You keep telling them to read the posts I understand at least in this thread.

What about you telling them in a few words exactly whether God is as Gen: 1.1 puts it, "in the beginning God made heaven and earth," and also the Apostles' Creed of Christians states that God is the "Father almighty creator of heaven and earth."

Genesis 1:1 actually says, beginning created God heavens and earth. There is a lot we could draw and speculate regarding this. What is beginning and why is it the noun and God the object?!?! Too way out there, so the common era interpretation is In the beginning God created....

I would say though that Elohim, which means the Powers is not the first cause or Source of all there is. Elohim is a manifestation of God Most High, through which creation came into being.

So I would say the God of Genesis 1:1 is speaking of the creative powers of God Most High.

About "Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this age," that sounds familiar to the self-proclamation of Mohammad that he is the last messenger of Allah for the last times or at least for his times.

That is all similar to the Christian doctrine that God the Father sent God the Son in a human person i.e. incarnated as Jesus Christ to save mankind from sin.


So, Christians, Baha'i adherents, and Muslims do have a common recurring concept about their founders are messengers from God to mankind.

Of course Christians will insist that Christians are different in that the messenger is God Himself although in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God, Who took on flesh becoming perfect man and perfect God, etc.

In my tradition, we recognize that all these persons were messengers or prophets of God, but Jesus or Adonai Yeshua Messiah is the greatest revelation of God this world has yet seen. According to our beliefs, he fully embodied the Father in the flesh, hence was called the Son of God. The others had lesser anointings.

What is my point here?

Time for us all believers in one God even Trinity in Persons to form a world council of monotheists for our common concerns, otherwise godless peoples might install again their godless regimes to promise and to attempt to bring about utopia for mankind on earth by all kinds of even arbitrary and genocidal killing of fellow humans who are useless to their experiments of bringing about utopia by the technology founded upon the principle of the survival of the fittest meaning of the most ruthless.

Of course they had failed with their godless communism ideology which for almost half a century succeeded to dominate half of mankind; but the old guards died and the new leaders saw through it all, it was all unworkable, and one after another godless communist regimes fell like domino decks.




Gerry

Unfortunately, Gerry, forming a religious regime or government as we have seen throughout history, including the Roman Catholic Church, only brings harm to humanity. In fact it is the religious regimes that do all the killing and genocide, thinking they know God and know what God wants.

Jesus came to bring about another era, one where each man answered directly to God, without having to go through a religious authority or political regime. I am sorry, but I believe what you are advocating is a step backwards for humanity.

Shalom!

Viv

[shunyadragon]

Sparko and Vivian, unless I am mistaken, are eager to know what more you know or believe about God aside from professing that He is the creator of the universe -- am I correct?

Possible, but I seriously question Sparko's motives. Vivian and I definitely do not agree on some 'beliefs,' but she has been more understanding and less egocentric in the discussion.

But you do agree with my description of God as a person like ourselves human persons but superior to the nth degree to us.

I do not agree that 'God is a person like ourselves' in any way. His ultimate nature is unknown.

What about you telling them in a few words exactly whether God is as Gen: 1.1 puts it, "in the beginning God made heaven and earth," and also the Apostles' Creed of Christians states that God is the "Father almighty creator of heaven and earth."

About "Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this age," that sounds familiar to the self-proclamation of Mohammad that he is the last messenger of Allah for the last times or at least for his times.

That is all similar to the Christian doctrine that God the Father sent God the Son in a human person i.e. incarnated as Jesus Christ to save mankind from sin.


So, Christians, Baha'i adherents, and Muslims do have a common recurring concept about their founders are messengers from God to mankind.

Of course Christians will insist that Christians are different in that the messenger is God Himself although in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God, Who took on flesh becoming perfect man and perfect God, etc.

I do not take these concepts and titles, ie Father, in the literal sense that can be expressed as doctrine. They have symbolic and conceptual value to describe the relationship of Creation including humanity with God.

What is my point here?

Time for us all believers in one God even Trinity in Persons to form a world council of monotheists for our common concerns, otherwise godless peoples might install again their godless regimes to promise and to attempt to bring about utopia for mankind on earth by all kinds of even arbitrary and genocidal killing of fellow humans who are useless to their experiments of bringing about utopia by the technology founded upon the principle of the survival of the fittest meaning of the most ruthless.

Of course they had failed with their godless communism ideology which for almost half a century succeeded to dominate half of mankind; but the old guards died and the new leaders saw through it all, it was all unworkable, and one after another godless communist regimes fell like domino decks.

Gerry

I am not all that comfortable with this soap box version of an approach to this discussion.

[Sparko]

Shuny, you posted this definition of Theist:


the·ism (thzm) n. Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Do you believe that God is the ruler of this world? That God is active in the affairs of men?

[shunyadragon]

Shuny, you posted this definition of Theist:


the·ism (thzm) n. Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

Do you believe that God is the ruler of this world? That God is active in the affairs of men?

Done

[Sparko]

Done

which post?

It was brought up by another staff member, so I asked it here.

[shunyadragon]

which post?

It was brought up by another staff member, so I asked it here.

Done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You cited the post and definition, dumb bunny!!!!!!!!