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Early extinct whales had hearing like their terrestrial ancestors

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  • Early extinct whales had hearing like their terrestrial ancestors

    New research published in Current Biology based on examining the fossil remains of a 45 myo fossilized whale found in Togo in West Africa reveals that the ear structure of early cetaceans closely resembled those found in their terrestrial ancestors.

    As one of the researchers, Maeva J. Orliac, a research scientist with the Centre Nationnal de la Recherche Scientifique and Université de Montpellier in France explained:
    "We found that the cochlea of protocetes was distinct from that of extant whales and dolphins and that they had hearing capacities close to those of their terrestrial relatives."

    This means that the fully aquatic ear that they posses now which provides their keen underwater hearing evolved well after they took to the sea -- which would make perfect sense if evolution were true.

    The paper, Infrasonic and Ultrasonic Hearing Evolved after the Emergence of Modern Whales can be seen at the link provided.

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  • #2
    Nice. Now all we need is archaeological evidence that flying creatures predate terrestrial and all will be complete.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Neat! Thank you for the reference!
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Nice. Now all we need is archaeological evidence that flying creatures predate terrestrial and all will be complete.
        Simple enough. The birds are what remain of the dinosaurs. So in a sense we already have all the evidence we need to realize that in terms of liniage and in a broad brush sense, the birds and the sea creatures do precede
        The modern mammals, which are the primary group described being created after them.

        Jim
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Simple enough. The birds are what remain of the dinosaurs. So in a sense we already have all the evidence we need to realize that in terms of liniage and in a broad brush sense, the birds and the sea creatures do precede
          The modern mammals, which are the primary group described being created after them.
          Give over, Jim. There's no way that "cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth" refers only to modern mammals and doesn't include lizards, centipedes and scorpions.

          Add to that the conclusion that modern mammals descended from the same terrestrial ancestors that the birds did and the obvious point that modern birds and sea creatures don't precede modern mammals but evolved alongside them, and your claim here is seen to be just ignoring facts to force-fit reality into a false observation.

          Since you could use the exact same technique you are using to reach a very different conclusion, your technique can be forcefully rejected.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Give over, Jim. There's no way that "cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth" refers only to modern mammals and doesn't include lizards, centipedes and scorpions.

            Add to that the conclusion that modern mammals descended from the same terrestrial ancestors that the birds did and the obvious point that modern birds and sea creatures don't precede modern mammals but evolved alongside them, and your claim here is seen to be just ignoring facts to force-fit reality into a false observation.

            Since you could use the exact same technique you are using to reach a very different conclusion, your technique can be forcefully rejected.
            Roy,

            You know I don't argue for the early chapters of Genesis being useful as literal and direct mappings of history. Just the same, I find these sorts of broad brush correlations fascinating.

            It deals only with the issue of the birds and fish described as created 'first'. To me the birds and their connection to the dinosaurs is significant enough to justify their mention in this manner. But this could only be seen as plausible if one believes Genesis is itself inspired by God. I would not expect it to be some sort of proof of inspiration.

            My reply was not meant to imply any more than that, and as a bit of a tease to spark discussion.

            Jim
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-12-2017, 02:19 PM.
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Roy,

              You know I don't argue for the early chapters of Genesis being useful as literal and direct mappings of history.
              Yeah, I know. That's why I was surprised to see your suggestion that Genesis was correct because birds preceded modern mammals, when mammals equally preceded modern birds.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Simple enough. The birds are what remain of the dinosaurs. So in a sense we already have all the evidence we need to realize that in terms of liniage and in a broad brush sense, the birds and the sea creatures do precede
                The modern mammals, which are the primary group described being created after them.

                Jim
                Conclusive evidence indicates that the family of reptiles that includes alligators and crocodiles also survived from the extinction event of the dinosaurs.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  Yeah, I know. That's why I was surprised to see your suggestion that Genesis was correct because birds preceded modern mammals, when mammals equally preceded modern birds.
                  Actually modern birds go back to well within the era of the dinosaurs;

                  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...-amber-fossil/
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Conclusive evidence
                    miiiy my.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And then there's these bods:



                      This species can only glide (about 200m maximum) - there's another that actually does fly short distances.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Actually modern birds go back to well within the era of the dinosaurs;

                        http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...-amber-fossil/
                        ...this discovery is providing critical new information about these ancient, toothed birds and how they differed from modern birds.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Conclusive evidence indicates that the family of reptiles that includes alligators and crocodiles also survived from the extinction event of the dinosaurs.
                          I don't think you meant what you wrote here
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/prehistoric-bird-pictures-and-profiles-4031812

                            Paleontologists continue to be puzzled by the profusion of early Cretaceous birds possessing surprisingly advanced characteristics. One of the best-known of these avian enigmas is Sapeornis, a seagull-sized prehistoric bird that seems to have been adapted for long bursts of soaring flight, and was almost certainly one of the biggest birds of its time and place. Like many other Mesozoic birds, Sapeornis had its share of reptilian characteristics--such as the small number of teeth on the end of its beak--but otherwise it seems to have been well advanced toward the bird, rather than the feathered dinosaur, end of the evolutionary spectrum.

                            Nothing gives paleontologists fits like trying to trace the evolutionary relationships of prehistoric birds. A good example is Longipteryx, a surprisingly birdy-looking bird (long, feathered wings, long bill, prominent breastbone) that doesn't quite fit in with the other avian families of the early Cretaceous period. Judging by its anatomy, Longipteryx must have been able to fly for relatively long distances and perch on the high branches of trees, and the curved teeth on the end of its beak point to a seagull-like diet of fish and crustaceans.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Looks like the paleontologists have a fun filled time ahead.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 06-14-2017, 09:06 AM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              Yeah, I know. That's why I was surprised to see your suggestion that Genesis was correct because birds preceded modern mammals, when mammals equally preceded modern birds.
                              ok - so let's look at this a bit. Several responses give, I'm picking yours as a launching point.

                              First: I am not trying to imply there is any detailed concordance here. What I'm describing would best be understood as secondary correlations overlain on a fabric of text with a very different purpose than conveying scientific knowledge.

                              Second: Any broad brush description of the history of life is going to be incomplete, especially one that tries to describe that history in terms of 3 broad groups of animals derived from a certain cultural understanding of how to classify life on the Earth. So my comments are not meant to be derivative, to indicate something could be learned directly about how the history of life proceeded from this text. However, in my early education the point was made that the birds themselves represent an unique 3rd class of animal when trying to divide animals into cold-blooded vs warm blooded(Reptile and Mammal): It lays eggs like the reptiles and fish, but is warm-blooded like the mammals. We later learned that this is because some of the dinosaurs where in fact warm blooded, and that the birds evolved from them. Second, even though the evolution of mammals occurred during the time of the dinosaurs, their dominance on the Earth was made possible by the events some 65 million years ago the effectively wiped out all the dinosaurs - except the birds.

                              So given that the writer chose this way to describe the groups of life on the Earth, there is a certain sensibleness - at least to me - of correlating the birds and fish before the mammals, and that the mention of fish is before the birds is also concordant with this broad brush look at how the current order of life came to be - at least in terms of these broad groups of animals here so described (fish/birds/land creatures). Certainly this does not hold if one tries to apply some modern classification system and/or look at the evolution of life in more detail. Certain reptiles also survived (e.g. the fore mentioned alligators and crocodiles) but technically reptiles are not dinosaurs but a separate group like the mammals. Creatures with exoskeletons or creatures without any sort of skeleton also don't fit - but again this is not how the writer chose to describe life on the Earth.

                              There is another element here that comes from my perspective as a believer, believing that God has revealed in scripture, that God is operating here. And that element is that often revelatory text contains secondary and hidden meanings relative to what the original writers where targeting*. So I see nothing inconsistent with God helping the writer chose his words so that there are elements familiar to or pointing to things known by a modern reader in the text, even though (in this instance) the purpose of the text has nothing to do with some sort of physical description of the creation events over the 13.7 billion year history of the Earth and universe.

                              So - as a believer, not as an atheist or person from another religious persuasion - I look at Genesis and in the first couple of verses I see a description that looks very much like a broad brush description of what we understand as the Big Bang through to the re-ionization event. And yet, I know quite well the writer of the text is likely simply describing from the ancient perspective the creation of the division of light and dark in the raqia or sky, and what we today know is not some fixed element of a dome but rather the terminator created by the rotating Earth before the Sun.

                              So I see these are reflections of things understood through modern science placed into the text by a God who knows the whole of the truth, who is creating a text that is to serve all generations and that has been purposed to that end. Its first and primary purpose to the peoples who originally received it would have been to through language and symbols well known to them drive home the fact that the elements of the universe commonly worshiped in the surrounding cultures were not gods or God, but rather things created by Him with a purpose.

                              But secondarily I would expect to see other elements, like the birds being the remnants of a unique class of animals long extinct in terms of how we typically think of them but which for a very long time dominated the Earth. Or like the text that in modern setting can be seen as a poetic description of the Big Bang.

                              So that is where I come from on this. I don't think that just because Genesis on its first level is a polemic against polytheism that it necessarily is ONLY mythology. It is a revelation of God. And as such, there may well be much more meaning found there than what is seen superficially.


                              Jim

                              *This is especially true in the OT Messianic prophecies - some are of the Christ - the suffering servant who takes away the sins of the world, others of the Coming Christ who will take on the form of a ruling King.
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-14-2017, 09:19 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment

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