The Political Screwballs Thread

[Augustine2004]

Slow structural failure caused by fires raging in the buildings that eventually weakened the building to a point where it fell down. Again, this is in the reports, but I guess you know more than the engineers and builders that designed and built the buildings, eh? Again, conspiracy theorists never look at the facts.

what reports?

Did I say that? No, so perhaps you should respond to what I say instead of what you want to hear?

No, what? Anyway, I never said that you said the government would not have repealed the A & S act unless the people demanded its repeal. Why did you respond that way?

Yes and people have demonstrated, on TV and video's that it isn't that hard to aim and shoot in a quick succession. Also, I OWN and shoot firearms, do you? I even own a bolt action and again, it's not a whole lot slower, for those experienced in their operation and the fact that even to this day, snipers prefer it over semi-auto says something. Perhaps you should you know, read reports and watch studies that are set out to do this and all confirm the findings that JFK was shoot by a lone gunmen.

I have now conceded on this point, but I still don't believe Oswald acted alone. And I believe his assertion that he was a patsy.

I've watched plenty of reports and read what experts have to say and they all agree with the government view of these actions or let me guess, they are all part of the conspiracy to hide the truth too, right?

Oh, things can be made up. Hmmm I wonder how CBS News--not exactly an unbiased source of news--might have doctored the video? Oh, never mind, I still concede.

Or it's because of typical human nature where it's hard to discern facts because the day that JFK was shot started out as any other day. Likewise, the day 9/11 happened started out as any other day. Some things we may over look and make conspiracies after the facts because we like to believe that big events must have happened though equally big things. We don't want to believe that one man, with a gun, can change the course of history. We do not want to believe that a small group of people can steal a group of passenger jets and use them to kill thousands. Human nature doesn't want to accept those facts and thus why conspiracy theories are born out of the normally mundane and unexplained things that happen every day, that become huge deals when a huge event happens.

Conspiracy theories abound because we can never be sure what the facts are.

Simple logic augustine, the more complex a conspiracy is, the more people that have to be let in on it and the less likely it is to stay secret. As I gave two examples of attempted government conspiracies that totally fell apart. Nixon was unable to suppress the evidence against him in the Watergate scandal and Clinton was unable to suppress his sexual actives. These are some pretty small conspiracies and neither president was able to suppress them, so if they can't suppress something as simple as that, what makes you think the government is capable of suppressing a much more complex event (such as 9/11) that would have to involve many more people and thus increase the likelihood of a leak. Yet, we have no evidence of the government taking part in any activity to cover up the truth about the JFK assassination or about 9/11 and if anything, the reports written make many government agencies look foolish and rather incompent at their jobs. The most logical path is that there is no conspiracy to hide the truth because the truth is already known.

No, the truth is never known for sure--not all the details. I reject your 'simple logic.' For one thing, it's really an assertion of probability. Sure some--hey, you did say conspiracy! Twice in fact. Well, to start over, sure some conspiracies do get exposed. Pat Tillman's death, the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident,' the casus belli claimed by Polk for invading Mexico, etc. But we can't be sure that ALL conspiracies became exposed in time. Look, probability does not mean it always happens. For example, if something occurs 75% of the time, then we may say it is probable. But it still did NOT happen 25% of the time. It is NOT a matter of 'simple logic.' Besides, you simply don't know data from which to make probability assessments.



Another thing. Your argument is based on the improbability of no leak occurring. But leaks MAY have occurred, but there was enough disinformation to obscure the truth, so we are unable to determine what the facts are.



Hmmm, I'm reminded of the death of Ayrton Senna da Silva. The steering wheel column in his racing car was discovered after his crash to have snapped off. Some people think that was the cause of the crash (the column broke as Senna was making a turn), but others said no, the crash with the off-track concrete wall caused the column to snap off. There were two separate trials, resulting in a final verdict that the guy who made modifications to the column bungled them. However a guy who was his boss or superior dissented with the verdict as late as May 2011. Was he covering things up? Or did he really know something that makes the verdict truly doubtful?

One point here is that the verdict didn't come until about thirteen years after the crash. A staggering amount of technical data had to be sifted through, a task the great majority of the populace simply don't have the patience, education and intelligence to handle.

You probably will say that it's been really a long time since the JFK murder now, but secrets do take that long or longer to come out, if I recall correctly.

There is still controversy over whether FDR maneuvered the Japanese into 'firing the first shot.' I believe he did so, but maybe you believe otherwise.

The 'magic bullet' theory in the Warren Commission Report -- do you and Rogue06 accept it? Explain why?

Sorry augustine, but people who steal information and give it to a foreign intelligence service are called spies by every definition in the book. It's just lucky for them that they live in the US and not in the USSR or China because they would be dead by now.

Oh, come on, information about wrongdoing!? Are you really that biased!?

[Augustine2004]

Pretty much and even government 'secret' projects, there are still hints and roomers running around about them.

But why were we talking about Bradley Manning and Julian Assange, if the government is that leaky?

[Augustine2004]

Why didn't I think of this before !?

D-Day might have failed if the Germans had an accurate idea of what the Allies were going to do. Was it because they did manage to keep D-Day a secret until it started? No, I think it was simply that their disinformation campaign worked.

[Augustine2004]

Readers of this thread know how stoutly Challenger Grim, Rogue06, Lil Pixie, et. al defend the USFG against my attacks. Readers therefore would not be surprised if those named persons shrug off my posting a link to this article in MIT's Technology Review, titled 'How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA'

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/



See, the TSA is supposed to make things more safe for us--and does not. I think its real purpose is to instill a cattle-like mentality in the populace. Anyway, the TSA claims its Chertoff scanners are not only less pornographic than before (I don't quite believe that either) but still safe.



CG, R, and LP can go and let their DNA get rearranged, and then maybe their future arguments will be much easier to refute than now, but I would not care for such a victory

[lilpixieofterror]

what reports?

Do you not know how to look things up on non-conspiracy crack pot sites? I know several groups (such as Discovery Channel and History Channel) have done documentaries upon 9/11 and found World Trade Center 7 collapsed due to several fires that weakened the structure to the point where it collapsed. Here is a quick article about how both FEMA and a separate group (the NIST or National Institute of Standards and Technology) both come to conclusions that World Trade Center 7 collapsed due to structural failure and not due to any sort of foul play. Let me guess, are both of these groups also part of the conspiracy to hide the truth too?

No, what? Anyway, I never said that you said the government would not have repealed the A & S act unless the people demanded its repeal. Why did you respond that way? I have now conceded on this point, but I still don't believe Oswald acted alone. And I believe his assertion that he was a patsy.Oh, things can be made up. Hmmm I wonder how CBS News--not exactly an unbiased source of news--might have doctored the video? Oh, never mind, I still concede.

And despite searches for trying to find evidence that Oswald had help, there has been no government connection found. If he did have help, there is no evidence that it came from the US government and at best, the US government and the Dallas police simply missed something. Of course, there also has been no evidence that the mob, Cuba, or the USSR were involved either and as far as anybody can tell, there is no evidence that anybody, other than Oswald, shot Kennedy.

Conspiracy theories abound because we can never be sure what the facts are.

They abound because humans often can't accept that one crazed person or several crazed people, can do something that changes the world around them. A lone gunman was enough to change the course of American history and a small band of people was enough to change the course of recent history and end the lives of thousands. These are huge events and we would like to believe that huge events are lead by huge factors and many people simply can't accept.

No, the truth is never known for sure--not all the details. I reject your 'simple logic.' For one thing, it's really an assertion of probability. Sure some--hey, you did say conspiracy! Twice in fact. Well, to start over, sure some conspiracies do get exposed. Pat Tillman's death, the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident,' the casus belli claimed by Polk for invading Mexico, etc. But we can't be sure that ALL conspiracies became exposed in time. Look, probability does not mean it always happens. For example, if something occurs 75% of the time, then we may say it is probable. But it still did NOT happen 25% of the time. It is NOT a matter of 'simple logic.' Besides, you simply don't know data from which to make probability assessments.

The problem is Augustine, despite the fact that the US government is far from leak proof and many conspiracies and secrets seem to come forward or indirectly exposed, there has been no evidence, in the over 10 years since 9/11, thus far that the US government had anything to do with 9/11 beyond a failure of intelligence and underestimating the capabilities of our enemy. Despite nearly 50 years and countless investigations by all sorts of groups, there is also no evidence that the US government killed Kennedy or tried to cover up anything. If anything, Wiki leaks did show us that most of the secrets the US government had really seemed rather mundane. I'm sorry Augustine, but unless you can present actual evidence of any sort of 9/11 or JFK conspiracy, the logical conclusion is that there is no conspiracy going on at all.

Another thing. Your argument is based on the improbability of no leak occurring. But leaks MAY have occurred, but there was enough disinformation to obscure the truth, so we are unable to determine what the facts are.

There are tons of leaks in the US government and as my two examples showed, even some kind of small secrets didn't stay secret for long and lead to the fall of Nixon and nearly ended the presidency of Clinton. Yet, here it is almost 50 years later and still no compelling evidence has been shown that the US government had a thing to do with the death of JFK beyond a failure of the Secret Service to do its job. It's been just over 10 years and still no compelling evidence has been shown that the US government planned 9/11 and if anything, all the studies have showed that the US government acted rather foolishly and fouled up in some rather embarrassing ways. It is convent though that we can't tell the truth, but we do know that your conspiracy theories are true. So again, who should I believe, the numerous communities and investigations over 9/11 and the JFK assassination that have continued to show the government conclusion as being the right conclusion or conspiracy theories that try to play on the rather known fact that we don't have all the facts, which while true, it still doesn't mean there is a conspiracy since we don't know all the facts for almost any event that happens around us.

Hmmm, I'm reminded of the death of Ayrton Senna da Silva. The steering wheel column in his racing car was discovered after his crash to have snapped off. Some people think that was the cause of the crash (the column broke as Senna was making a turn), but others said no, the crash with the off-track concrete wall caused the column to snap off. There were two separate trials, resulting in a final verdict that the guy who made modifications to the column bungled them. However a guy who was his boss or superior dissented with the verdict as late as May 2011. Was he covering things up? Or did he really know something that makes the verdict truly doubtful?

Welcome to the world of limited facts Augustine since we can say the same for almost anything that exist. It remains though, the burden of the conspiracy theorist to show anything happened and thus far they really don't have anything compelling to show.

One point here is that the verdict didn't come until about thirteen years after the crash. A staggering amount of technical data had to be sifted through, a task the great majority of the populace simply don't have the patience, education and intelligence to handle.

And it's been almost 50 years since JFK was killed and still nothing. It's been over 10 since 9/11 and still nothing. So how many more years will it take until you accept that your conspiracy theories are all bunk?

You probably will say that it's been really a long time since the JFK murder now, but secrets do take that long or longer to come out, if I recall correctly.

And still nothing to suggest otherwise. So shall we hold on forever and ever or just agree with the numerous investigations that keep coming to the same conclusions over and over again?

There is still controversy over whether FDR maneuvered the Japanese into 'firing the first shot.' I believe he did so, but maybe you believe otherwise.

Of course there is, but I somehow doubt that FDR's plan was to allow the Japanese to sink much of the Pacific fleet's most powerful front line ships. One thing that conspiracy theorist never seems to take into mind is that in 1941, the carrier was seen as a secondary support ship to support the Battleships, which at the time, were the front line ships. The bombing of Pearl Harbor made the US pacific fleet have to use carriers and thus the era of the carrier came. Now is it true that FDR knew a war was coming? I have little doubt about that and people had been predicting a war between Japan and the US for years and everybody knew it was coming sooner or later, but nobody knew just when it was going to come.

The 'magic bullet' theory in the Warren Commission Report -- do you and Rogue06 accept it? Explain why?

There is no magic bullet, but when you adjust the angles correctly, puff, the 'magic bullet' goes away and thus was done through a separate and independent investigation of the JFK assassination. Perhaps you should actually try to look this stuff up?

Oh, come on, information about wrongdoing!? Are you really that biased!?

Sorry Augustine, there is no evidence of wrongdoing and last I checked, handing secret documents to a foreign intelligence service made a person a spy. As I said before, if he was in China or the USSR, he would have been dead by now.

[lilpixieofterror]

Why didn't I think of this before !?

D-Day might have failed if the Germans had an accurate idea of what the Allies were going to do. Was it because they did manage to keep D-Day a secret until it started? No, I think it was simply that their disinformation campaign worked.

Actually, you really should do your research before you say such dumb things. You are correct that there was a disinformation campaign going on, but it's too bad that the allies simply tricked ther Germans into thinking the invasion was going somewhere else.

[lilpixieofterror]

Readers of this thread know how stoutly Challenger Grim, Rogue06, Lil Pixie, et. al defend the USFG against my attacks. Readers therefore would not be surprised if those named persons shrug off my posting a link to this article in MIT's Technology Review, titled 'How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA'

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/



See, the TSA is supposed to make things more safe for us--and does not. I think its real purpose is to instill a cattle-like mentality in the populace. Anyway, the TSA claims its Chertoff scanners are not only less pornographic than before (I don't quite believe that either) but still safe.



CG, R, and LP can go and let their DNA get rearranged, and then maybe their future arguments will be much easier to refute than now, but I would not care for such a victory

Got to love conspiracy theorist, no matter what, the government is out to get them! Of course, evidence for them... nothing by assertions and roomers, but remember children, in the mind of a conspiracy theorist, a lack of evidence is evidence that a conspiracy is going on!

[Kristian Joense]

Augustine, I have a couple of questions for you. What evidence would it take to convince you that 9/11 and the assassination of Kennedy weren't government conspiracies? Who has the burden of proof in this matter you or lilpixieofterror? Why?

[Meta Knight]

Augustine, I have a couple of questions for you. What evidence would it take to convince you that 9/11 and the assassination of Kennedy weren't government conspiracies? Who has the burden of proof in this matter you or lilpixieofterror? Why?

I can answer the first question for you: there is none. He's a conspiracy theorist. There is literally no way to convince those types that they're wrong.

[Kristian Joense]

That is what I suspect.

[lilpixieofterror]

Augustine, I have a couple of questions for you. What evidence would it take to convince you that 9/11 and the assassination of Kennedy weren't government conspiracies? Who has the burden of proof in this matter you or lilpixieofterror? Why?

I would think the fact that Augustine believes that the TSA's job is to turn us all into mindless cattle so our DNA can be split and we all will be turned into mindless, government zombies should answer that question.

[Augustine2004]

'No evidence.' 'No evidence.' 'No evidence.' Lil Pixie actually sees nothing wrong with the Bradley Manning video. I feel sorta weird.



You know that in the Zapruder film a sign by Elm Street blocked the view of what appears to be the first time JFK is hit. For a conspiracy that's mighty convenient.


Now look at frame 225 http://www.assassinationresearch.com...zframe225.html

Look, everything about this frame looks to be in order with everything else I've ever seen of the Zapruder film. Do you agree? Of course Lil Pixie might disagree. If she does, then she should point out what's wrong with it, i.e., point out signs of fakery.


Now I ask you to study the frame carefully. Does it seem to be a view of a normal scene, except that it's a picture of a historical moment?



Of course Lil Pixie will never see anything wrong.

[lilpixieofterror]

'No evidence.' 'No evidence.' 'No evidence.' Lil Pixie actually sees nothing wrong with the Bradley Manning video. I feel sorta weird.

What does the Bradley Manning video have to do with 9/11 and JFK assassination?

You know that in the Zapruder film a sign by Elm Street blocked the view of what appears to be the first time JFK is hit. For a conspiracy that's mighty convenient.


Now look at frame 225 http://www.assassinationresearch.com...zframe225.html

Yep, it's obvious; the government put that sign in place because they figured that JFK was going to get shot at that precise moment and thus needed something to hide it. Yeah, that must be it!

Look, everything about this frame looks to be in order with everything else I've ever seen of the Zapruder film. Do you agree? Of course Lil Pixie might disagree. If she does, then she should point out what's wrong with it, i.e., point out signs of fakery.

Awe, so the government, knowing this going to destroy them, stole the Zapruder film and altered frame 225 so nobody can make it out and was able to put it back in place, all without anybody catching onto what was going on, in the process. You sure are amusing, I guess it's crazy to think that older cameras were not nearly as good as modern day ones, right? If you want to make this a more amusing conspiracy, you might want to include some transformers into it too because you never knew, the Decepticons might have been in on killing JFK the entire time because he was working with the Autobots to destroy them.

Now I ask you to study the frame carefully. Does it seem to be a view of a normal scene, except that it's a picture of a historical moment?

So the government stole the film and altered it all without anybody noticing? Where is your evidence for such a claim or is your argument, "DUH! It looks weird!" all you can produce? By golly, using that logic we can do that for almost anything and call anything and everything into question. Again, conspiracy theorist never thinks their arguments though, do they?

Of course Lil Pixie will never see anything wrong.

Or you simply are making assertions you can't back up. There's several camera's that act up without any reason, so has the government installed secret devices on every camera since the 50's that magically make things fuzz out or go crazy, at the precise moment? Yet... everything else is the crazy one, eh?

[Challenger Grim]

But they do show the government only makes a show of taking the welfare of the people to its heart. If cancer, then why not virii also?

Wow. You don't even know what cancer is or why it's such a "problem" do you?

There are some cases especially in the beginning that you can cite. What else? I guess you are not going to check out www.mercola.com.

What beginning? Just look at the prelim list here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine...in_vaccination
There's several instances just in the last decade or two.

You are like One Bad Pig, you are stuck on the 'the government loves us and takes care of us' cloud.

You know, Aug. You would have more friends if you didn't RELISH burning bridges so much.

Oh, and fallacy of the excluded middle, btw. Just because I know vaccines are one of the greatest medicinal advancements that humanity's ever made, doesn't mean I'm a cheerleader for government.

'Fool'? No, you are the fool. Try to prove that the government does more good than bad. One Bad Pig doesn't seem to be trying at all.

No, I meant "tool" and I said "tool". And I never said government rocks, I only said vaccines do. Duh.

[Challenger Grim]

Like you know anything. 'Slight'? Not!


Read this article http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/coc...-for-children/
And ask yourself: if that's true, how come the government lets Coca-cola get away with that!?

Uh... because the government is incompetant. To quote Jonah Goldberg.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoDelaysForTheWicked

...Government is staffed with mostly well-intentioned but incompetent people... Conspiracy theorists reverse this: They think government is evil-intentioned but supremely competent. That's crazy-talk, Count Chocula. — Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online, 9/13/06

© source where applicable

Well, I do operate on the theory that we are failing to keep sociopaths out of our governments. Look at Germany's failure to keep Hitler out and the consequences.

And right there's your problem. They're not "evil" (very few are even sociopaths). They're just stupid.

Hell, don't you know what LINCOLN did!? Alien and Sedition Act all the way back in the 19th Century?

I've explained before, freedom of speech is still highly valued by the people. You seem to be thick-headed. One must explain over and over until something gets through to whatever brain cells you have left.

I fail to see how that addresses anything even remotely related to whatever LPoT or Rogue has said.

Readers of this thread know how stoutly Challenger Grim, Rogue06, Lil Pixie, et. al defend the USFG against my attacks. Readers therefore would not be surprised if those named persons shrug off my posting a link to this article in MIT's Technology Review, titled 'How Terahertz Waves Tear Apart DNA'

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24331/

See, the TSA is supposed to make things more safe for us--and does not. I think its real purpose is to instill a cattle-like mentality in the populace. Anyway, the TSA claims its Chertoff scanners are not only less pornographic than before (I don't quite believe that either) but still safe.

CG, R, and LP can go and let their DNA get rearranged, and then maybe their future arguments will be much easier to refute than now, but I would not care for such a victory

So now, defending vaccines means defending the TSA? Is there a medication for you?

EDIT: and what's even funnier, is that for a lot of these conspiracies to work, the government et al would have to have psychic, Jedi powers and resources of such a level, you may as well be trying to fight God Himself.

In other words, why worry? Eat, drink and be merry, because there's [apparently] not a darn thing you can do about it.