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Christian Education

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    That's (I hope) because I don't want a 'one size fits all' solution. We do that NOW - every new book, new conference, etc - promising that if a church just does X it will be a megachurch in a week.

    I want to provide the kind of Christian education where at the end, the student is knowledgeable of Scripture. I want to provide the devotional training to help them apply that knowledge. I want the kind of Christian education that doesn't stay in the classroom - not even while training. And I want education that meets the students where they are - and helps get them where they want to be - and REALLY helps them want the right things (closeness to God, righteousness, etc).

    It's a multi-prong problem and it needs a multi-prong approach - but one key element is working with a congregation instead of either force feeding or writing them off.

    I want it ALL!
    And you should have all this. There is nothing wrong with expecting this kind of Christian education - indeed nurture of the soul.

    Unfortunately, as we have discussed, not everyone in a church wants this. Many are just content with a service and a Christian Ed hour that allows them to check off "did Christian this week." And church leadership will tend to play to the masses.

    I think church leadership needs to start putting the effort into an advanced track of education for the people who want it. It would be higher expectation on all the participants.

    It also means don't put these people into leadership. Unfortunately a desire for a deep Christian life gets responded to by sticking the person into a leadership slot. Being a leader doesn't mean a deeper experience.

    So now, if your church community won't do this, how do you do it?
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      And you should have all this. There is nothing wrong with expecting this kind of Christian education - indeed nurture of the soul.

      Unfortunately, as we have discussed, not everyone in a church wants this. Many are just content with a service and a Christian Ed hour that allows them to check off "did Christian this week." And church leadership will tend to play to the masses.

      I think church leadership needs to start putting the effort into an advanced track of education for the people who want it. It would be higher expectation on all the participants.

      It also means don't put these people into leadership. Unfortunately a desire for a deep Christian life gets responded to by sticking the person into a leadership slot. Being a leader doesn't mean a deeper experience.
      Wait, what? If someone doesn't have a desire for a deep Christian life, they have no business being in church leadership. And one would think that someone with that desire would be rather more inclined than others to want to inculcate it in others, and so would be the best choice for implementing an advanced track of education.
      Last edited by One Bad Pig; 07-05-2017, 07:52 AM. Reason: fixed typo
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        And you should have all this. There is nothing wrong with expecting this kind of Christian education - indeed nurture of the soul.

        Unfortunately, as we have discussed, not everyone in a church wants this. Many are just content with a service and a Christian Ed hour that allows them to check off "did Christian this week." And church leadership will tend to play to the masses.

        I think church leadership needs to start putting the effort into an advanced track of education for the people who want it. It would be higher expectation on all the participants.

        It also means don't put these people into leadership. Unfortunately a desire for a deep Christian life gets responded to by sticking the person into a leadership slot. Being a leader doesn't mean a deeper experience.

        So now, if your church community won't do this, how do you do it?
        Start with the willing - jealousy is a dumb motivator but it does work.

        Seriously, every church in Troy Alabama wants a darned basketball court - why? Because other churches have them and their youth programs use them.

        Ignoring the law of diminishing returns that is in play with things like basketball courts, a growing, vibrant school attracts membership - and that attracts attention.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • #34
          So it would be beneficial to work out a skeleton and the put flesh on it I think.
          What are the intended outcomes? - something a bit more solid than just "we need an education."
          What are the elements needed to achieve those outcomes?
          Should it be done as an "in-house" exercise, or should it be aimed at providing something that a university would accept as meeting pre-entry requirements?
          Should it be one, or two courses? base level, and a higher level that qualifies a person to teach the base level, perhaps.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            I think those answers will vary somewhat - each church or area will have to decide for themselves.

            But what I'd like to see:

            1) conversant in Scripture, knowledgeable about doctrine, functional theology, active faith (life application at work)
            2) adapt existing facilities, explore and purchase superior curricula, socialization (getting everyone on the team)
            3) Accreditation should be the aim - both as a selling point but more importantly, we should treat the Word of God as if it were as important as it really is. Caveat: the object is to achieve - and here a church will have to work harder to assist those for whom 'study' is a hurdle. Actually, done right, that's another selling point.
            4) Core should probably be four or five courses - if you are talking about certification. I'm of the opinion that that baseline should be meet by everyone - and that yes, teachers must meet it before instructing. Beyond that - aim high.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Wait, what? If someone doesn't have a desire for a deep Christian life, they have no business being in church leadership. And one would think that someone with that desire would be rather more inclined than others to want to inculcate it in others, and so would be the best choice for implementing an advanced track of education.
              Oops. I failed to be clear. Let me try to clarify.

              When I talk about the Christian who doesn't want a deeper life, I am referring to the congregation and not leadership. I find the "average" Christian member of a church really doesn't want a deeper life. To be crude, I think a lot of them a simply there out a habit or to get fire insurance. I find the leadership spends too much time trying to met the needs of that group.

              I have the desire for a deeper life. I do not have that deeper life and frankly I'm not sure where to start or how to proceed. You really think I'm qualified to lead such a group. Its seems like asking someone who desires to be a plumber to teaching plumber classes.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                Oops. I failed to be clear. Let me try to clarify.

                When I talk about the Christian who doesn't want a deeper life, I am referring to the congregation and not leadership. I find the "average" Christian member of a church really doesn't want a deeper life. To be crude, I think a lot of them a simply there out a habit or to get fire insurance. I find the leadership spends too much time trying to met the needs of that group.

                I have the desire for a deeper life. I do not have that deeper life and frankly I'm not sure where to start or how to proceed. You really think I'm qualified to lead such a group. Its seems like asking someone who desires to be a plumber to teaching plumber classes.
                Your life may be deeper than you think. It is those who are closest to God who see most clearly just how far they need to go yet - and desire most to get there. Teaching is itself a great way to learn. Especially if your leading is more discussion group than talk, you don't need to be leaps and bounds beyond those you lead; humbly acknowledge your place at the outset, and step out in faith.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Your life may be deeper than you think. It is those who are closest to God who see most clearly just how far they need to go yet - and desire most to get there. Teaching is itself a great way to learn. Especially if your leading is more discussion group than talk, you don't need to be leaps and bounds beyond those you lead; humbly acknowledge your place at the outset, and step out in faith.
                  This was well said. I may add that reading about some of the heroes of Christian faith/orthodoxy throughout history disabuses us of the notion that true fellowship with God necessarily requires drastic steps - many of these heroes lived quite ordinary lives.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    This was well said. I may add that reading about some of the heroes of Christian faith/orthodoxy throughout history disabuses us of the notion that true fellowship with God necessarily requires drastic steps - many of these heroes lived quite ordinary lives.
                    May I ask who you are referring to? If been trying to think of examples and all I come up with are pastors, missionaries, or evangelist.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Your life may be deeper than you think. It is those who are closest to God who see most clearly just how far they need to go yet - and desire most to get there. Teaching is itself a great way to learn. Especially if your leading is more discussion group than talk, you don't need to be leaps and bounds beyond those you lead; humbly acknowledge your place at the outset, and step out in faith.
                      My problem is I usually don't know how to shut-up. It can be quite the internal strife to keep myself from dominating the conversation.

                      You did make me wonder why so much church teaching is done by the talking head at the front of the room. Most will take questions but it still essentially a one way conversation from the front to the people in the audience. To me the probable reasons are its the easiest way to prepare and it does met the needs of the new believer.

                      Yet, I've been a believer for about 30 years. I would hope by now, I know something and can contribute to a discussion. It hit me at work this week. I entered banking as a profession 11 years ago. At meetings, I am expected to contribute. But at church, I'm expected to sit passively as if I know nothing. I don't think its simply because I don't have a degree or certificate.

                      As we have said in this thread, a church needs to start recognizing that more mature Christians need different teaching than new Christians and adjust accordingly. Most just teach at the lowest level of knowledge.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                        May I ask who you are referring to? If been trying to think of examples and all I come up with are pastors, missionaries, or evangelist.
                        I have mentioned Corrie ten Boom in other threads. But largely I was thinking of a book I read about spirituality during the first few centuries of Christianity, and the writings from many ordinary Christians about their lives.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                          Oops. I failed to be clear. Let me try to clarify.

                          When I talk about the Christian who doesn't want a deeper life, I am referring to the congregation and not leadership. I find the "average" Christian member of a church really doesn't want a deeper life. To be crude, I think a lot of them a simply there out a habit or to get fire insurance. I find the leadership spends too much time trying to met the needs of that group.

                          I have the desire for a deeper life. I do not have that deeper life and frankly I'm not sure where to start or how to proceed. You really think I'm qualified to lead such a group. Its seems like asking someone who desires to be a plumber to teaching plumber classes.
                          If a person doesn't want to become a saint, what could Christ have that he could possibly want?
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            If a person doesn't want to become a saint, what could Christ have that he could possibly want?
                            Absolutely nothing.

                            What he probably wants is a message to make him feel good, a social group, status if he is in a leadership position, free counseling, and the someone to preside over the big three (birth, wedding, death.)
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              Absolutely nothing.

                              What he probably wants is a message to make him feel good, a social group, status if he is in a leadership position, free counseling, and the someone to preside over the big three (birth, wedding, death.)
                              Actually, I disagree - Christ may offer absolutely nothing that the guy thinks he wants - but in fact Christ offers absolutely everything, whether or not we want it.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                I agree - learning Scripture for the sake of saying you know it is a foolish goal. But emphasizing 'how it relates to us now' tends to end up with the mushy, feelly and not really going anywhere education we see today.

                                I'm a both/and girl - we NEED devotionals, time in reflection, prayer (lots and lots of prayer), and Life Application - but we have left behind the 'nuts and bolts', chap and verse, knowledge of God's word to the point that we can't truly do the former, either. The knowledge of Scripture is just too weak - and the likelihood of error skyrockets.

                                I think it is the exception that comes to truly know God without a knowledge of His word. It's like getting to know your penpal - minus reading his letters!

                                As a Methodist, I think both Methodism and the Church Universal could benefit from a 'back to basics, getting serious, step by step' approach.

                                We need devotional/life application.

                                We need knowledge.

                                We need relationship, both with Him and with each other.

                                We need to get off the pew and into the world.


                                And we NEED all four all at once.

                                I think we can use both a renewed emphasis on knowledge education and an emphasis on service to push toward better life application and, most importantly, a drive toward relationship with Him.

                                That sounds really dorky in print. I see multiple emphasis' - but interwoven, not separated as the modern church tends to do. We need compartments - we don't need to be ruled by them.


                                That's as clear as mud, isn't it?
                                I've come to accept that my brain is a slow cooker. It can take awhile for it produce the results.

                                We're not looking for a better Christian Education. We're looking for discipleship! And that's even rarer than good Christian education.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                                Comment

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