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Thread: Secular Ethics...

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I have read quite a bit on both. Deontological ethics could possibly escape the subjective charge if applied to Divine command theory.
    Which would contradict Kant's aim ()... In short: He did not want to base it on divine commands, revelations and stuff like that because then it would not apply to all people regardles of religion or culture.

  2. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-roh View Post
    Yeeeaaaah.... so here's the really important thing: William James never argued anything like what I said. Someone who had some familiarity with utilitarianism and deontological ethics, as you claim to have, probably would've caught that pretty quickly.

    Tell me seer, why are you pretending to know things? Does divine command theory allow for pretenses of knowledge?



    I'm not sure if you know how ethics, in general, works. Of course there are conflicting views, and 'some men believe that it is perfectly acceptable to treat their fellow man as a means only.' Ethics isn't about "what people think/do" it's about "whether what people think/do is right."

    So glib responses that "all men have an opinion" are categorically off the mark. It's not that you're just missing the target, or that your aim at the wrong target, it's that you may not even know how to aim.
    Very important points. And a very sophisticated way of showing that seer is a pretender.

  4. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  5. #13
    tWebber Jin-roh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Jin, I was not arguing about what James said or didn't say I was arguing about the point you brought up (whether attributed to James or not). So stop being deceptive. And BTW the only thing I ever read by James was "The Varieties of Religious Experience" and that back in 1975.
    Look, if you read that closely you probably would've picked up on his love for the classical theistic arguments and how he had to tie that in with his ethical theory -which again I'm not sure if you know much about.

    Nonsense, tell me anything in this little diatribe that isn't subjective? "Whether what people think/do is right." And this is not subjective? Ethics concern systems of moral values, values which are fundamentally subjective.
    You know, you keep using that word...

  6. Amen Charles, shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  7. #14
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Which would contradict Kant's aim ()... In short: He did not want to base it on divine commands, revelations and stuff like that because then it would not apply to all people regardles of religion or culture.
    Right, but others have applied it to the DCT, not Kant in particular. But Deontological ethics does fit nicely with the Biblical worldview. And Kant was a little more nuanced - do a search on his "Moral Argument For The Existence of God." In a nut shell that God is necessarily required for morality to achieve its end.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  8. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Right, but others have applied it to the DCT, not Kant in particular. But Deontological ethics does fit nicely with the Biblical worldview. And Kant was a little more nuanced - do a search on his "Moral Argument For The Existence of God." In a nut shell that God is necessarily required for morality to achieve its end.
    Quote? And how does it relate to his ethics in which he had another aim?

  9. #16
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Quote? And how does it relate to his ethics in which he had another aim?
    What quote? You don't even know Kant's moral argument for God and I'm the pretender?

    I did not want to argue by link, but since you asked:


    In his Critique of Practical Reason, Immanuel Kant, who has traditionally not been seen as an advocate of Divine Command Theory (for an opposing view see Nuyen, 1998), claims that morality requires faith in God and an afterlife. According to Kant, we must believe that God exists because the requirements of morality are too much for us to bear. We must believe that there is a God who will help us satisfy the demands of the moral law. With such a belief, we have the hope that we will be able to live moral lives. Moreover, Kant argues that “there is not the slightest ground in the moral law for a necessary connection between the morality and proportionate happiness of a being who belongs to the world as one of its parts and is thus dependent on it” (p. 131). However, if there is a God and an afterlife where the righteous are rewarded with happiness and justice obtains, this problem goes away. That is, being moral does not guarantee happiness, so we must believe in a God who will reward the morally righteous with happiness. Kant does not employ the concept of moral faith as an argument for Divine Command Theory, but a contemporary advocate could argue along Kantian lines that these advantages do accrue to this view of morality.

    http://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  10. #17
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-roh View Post
    Look, if you read that closely you probably would've picked up on his love for the classical theistic arguments and how he had to tie that in with his ethical theory -which again I'm not sure if you know much about.

    You know, you keep using that word...
    Stop playing games Jin and answer the questions.


    sub·jec·tive
    /səbˈjektiv/
    adjective
    1.
    based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions
    Now tell me again: "Whether what people think/do is right"

    How are these considerations not subjective. And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.
    Last edited by seer; 06-12-2017 at 05:26 PM.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    What quote? You don't even know Kant's moral argument for God and I'm the pretender?

    I did not want to argue by link, but since you asked:
    That is not a quote but a text from a presentation of Kant's thinking. However it does not do much to change his points in his deontologic ethics.

    Asking for an exact quote is not saying I do not know the argument. I just wanted you to link it to the deontological ethics which I haven't seen you do.
    Last edited by Charles; 06-12-2017 at 05:33 PM.

  12. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  13. #19
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    That is not a quote but a text from a presentation of Kant's thinking. However it does not do much to change his points in his deontologic ethics.
    Charles his argument is well known and I linked a respected site. The point is that living moral lives is basically futile without a just God at the end of the road. And you are correct it does not change his points concerning deontologic ethics but it goes right to the question of motivation and usefulness. Why live an ethical life of duty in the first place?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await our execution...

  14. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.
    That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.

    Reminds me of Socrates saying before he was killed that it was a greater tragedy for Athens than it was for him.
    Last edited by Charles; 06-12-2017 at 05:37 PM.

  15. Amen Carrikature amen'd this post.

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