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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    Quote? And how does it relate to his ethics in which he had another aim?
    What quote? You don't even know Kant's moral argument for God and I'm the pretender?

    I did not want to argue by link, but since you asked:


    In his Critique of Practical Reason, Immanuel Kant, who has traditionally not been seen as an advocate of Divine Command Theory (for an opposing view see Nuyen, 1998), claims that morality requires faith in God and an afterlife. According to Kant, we must believe that God exists because the requirements of morality are too much for us to bear. We must believe that there is a God who will help us satisfy the demands of the moral law. With such a belief, we have the hope that we will be able to live moral lives. Moreover, Kant argues that “there is not the slightest ground in the moral law for a necessary connection between the morality and proportionate happiness of a being who belongs to the world as one of its parts and is thus dependent on it” (p. 131). However, if there is a God and an afterlife where the righteous are rewarded with happiness and justice obtains, this problem goes away. That is, being moral does not guarantee happiness, so we must believe in a God who will reward the morally righteous with happiness. Kant does not employ the concept of moral faith as an argument for Divine Command Theory, but a contemporary advocate could argue along Kantian lines that these advantages do accrue to this view of morality.

    http://www.iep.utm.edu/divine-c/
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
      Look, if you read that closely you probably would've picked up on his love for the classical theistic arguments and how he had to tie that in with his ethical theory -which again I'm not sure if you know much about.

      You know, you keep using that word...
      Stop playing games Jin and answer the questions.


      sub·jec·tive
      /səbˈjektiv/
      adjective
      1.
      based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions
      Now tell me again: "Whether what people think/do is right"

      How are these considerations not subjective. And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.
      Last edited by seer; 06-12-2017, 12:26 PM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        What quote? You don't even know Kant's moral argument for God and I'm the pretender?

        I did not want to argue by link, but since you asked:
        That is not a quote but a text from a presentation of Kant's thinking. However it does not do much to change his points in his deontologic ethics.

        Asking for an exact quote is not saying I do not know the argument. I just wanted you to link it to the deontological ethics which I haven't seen you do.
        Last edited by Charles; 06-12-2017, 12:33 PM.
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          That is not a quote but a text from a presentation of Kant's thinking. However it does not do much to change his points in his deontologic ethics.
          Charles his argument is well known and I linked a respected site. The point is that living moral lives is basically futile without a just God at the end of the road. And you are correct it does not change his points concerning deontologic ethics but it goes right to the question of motivation and usefulness. Why live an ethical life of duty in the first place?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.
            That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.

            Reminds me of Socrates saying before he was killed that it was a greater tragedy for Athens than it was for him.
            Last edited by Charles; 06-12-2017, 12:37 PM.
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Charles View Post
              That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.
              Well I don't see how since he has not been able to answer a simple question about subjectivity.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                Stop playing games Jin and answer the questions.
                Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.


                Now tell me again: "Whether what people think/do is right"

                How are these considerations not subjective. And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.

                I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

                Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.

                  Reminds me of Socrates saying before he was killed that it was a greater tragedy for Athens than it was for him.
                  I'm blushing here...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
                    Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.

                    I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

                    Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.
                    Jin, I will give you one more chance to come clean - try some honesty. Tell me how these questions do not fall under the subjective heading. What moral opinion is not subjective? Please just one actual example would be nice.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
                      Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.





                      I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

                      Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.
                      Seer could start by lifting the toilet seat first!
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Jin, I will give you one more chance to come clean - try some honesty. Tell me how these questions do not fall under the subjective heading. What moral opinion is not subjective? Please just one actual example would be nice.
                        Seer, under the definition you have proffered for 'subjective' and how I think you understand 'ethics', there are no ethical questions (secular, religious or whatever) that are not subjective.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jin-roh View Post
                          Seer, under the definition you have proffered for 'subjective' and how I think you understand 'ethics', there are no ethical questions (secular, religious or whatever) that are not subjective.
                          Jin, I did not just invent a definition of subjective, what I'm asking is what moral opinion or moral goal is not subjective? I'm also asking why one moral opinion or moral goal is more correct or valid than its opposite? You are so wise Jin, these questions should be easy for you to answer.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Seer could start by lifting the toilet seat first!
                            Shuny please leave this thread.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Jin, I did not just invent a definition of subjective, what I'm asking is what moral opinion or moral goal is not subjective? I'm also asking why one moral opinion or moral goal is more correct or valid than its opposite? You are so wise Jin, these questions should be easy for you to answer.
                              Some times wisdom is not to give too simple answers to too simple questions based on a limited understanding of the subject matter.
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                Some times wisdom is not to give too simple answers to too simple questions based on a limited understanding of the subject matter.
                                No Charles, Jin is smart enough to know exactly where I am headed, and he knows he will end up agreeing that all moral opinions and moral goals are subjective, he was almost there in post #26. But Charles, feel free to jump in if you disagree with my subjectivity claim.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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