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Thread: Secular Ethics...

  1. #21
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.
    Well I don't see how since he has not been able to answer a simple question about subjectivity.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  2. #22
    tWebber Jin-roh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Stop playing games Jin and answer the questions.
    Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.


    Now tell me again: "Whether what people think/do is right"

    How are these considerations not subjective. And Jin if you keep playing games I will ask you to leave this thread.

    I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

    Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.

  3. #23
    tWebber Jin-roh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    That would be a greater loss to you than to Jin.

    Reminds me of Socrates saying before he was killed that it was a greater tragedy for Athens than it was for him.
    I'm blushing here...

  4. #24
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-roh View Post
    Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.

    I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

    Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.
    Jin, I will give you one more chance to come clean - try some honesty. Tell me how these questions do not fall under the subjective heading. What moral opinion is not subjective? Please just one actual example would be nice.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  5. #25
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-roh View Post
    Seer, you're the emperor without clothes right now. You claimed to know things about deontological and utilitarian ethics, yet when I attributed moral reasoning that sounds like Kant to one of the most famous utilitarians in history, you swallowed it without a second glance.





    I'm still super confused here. If you think "Whether what people think/do is right" necessarily also entails "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" (and therefore bad, wrong, whatever), then all ethical questions fall under this rather superficial use of the word 'subjective' -including any religious ethical questions.

    Learn to aim, seer. You're embarrassing yourself.
    Seer could start by lifting the toilet seat first!
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #26
    tWebber Jin-roh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Jin, I will give you one more chance to come clean - try some honesty. Tell me how these questions do not fall under the subjective heading. What moral opinion is not subjective? Please just one actual example would be nice.
    Seer, under the definition you have proffered for 'subjective' and how I think you understand 'ethics', there are no ethical questions (secular, religious or whatever) that are not subjective.

  7. #27
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-roh View Post
    Seer, under the definition you have proffered for 'subjective' and how I think you understand 'ethics', there are no ethical questions (secular, religious or whatever) that are not subjective.
    Jin, I did not just invent a definition of subjective, what I'm asking is what moral opinion or moral goal is not subjective? I'm also asking why one moral opinion or moral goal is more correct or valid than its opposite? You are so wise Jin, these questions should be easy for you to answer.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  8. #28
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Seer could start by lifting the toilet seat first!
    Shuny please leave this thread.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  9. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Jin, I did not just invent a definition of subjective, what I'm asking is what moral opinion or moral goal is not subjective? I'm also asking why one moral opinion or moral goal is more correct or valid than its opposite? You are so wise Jin, these questions should be easy for you to answer.
    Some times wisdom is not to give too simple answers to too simple questions based on a limited understanding of the subject matter.

  10. #30
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Some times wisdom is not to give too simple answers to too simple questions based on a limited understanding of the subject matter.
    No Charles, Jin is smart enough to know exactly where I am headed, and he knows he will end up agreeing that all moral opinions and moral goals are subjective, he was almost there in post #26. But Charles, feel free to jump in if you disagree with my subjectivity claim.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

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