Advice please?

[Cow Poke]

I think this does a much better job of setting the stage for a rational discussion than CP's example with his daughter.

I was hoping it was obvious that I was giving a good example of how NOT to do it!


Ttwo, I'm also hoping you realize some of us really like each other and love to give grief! I hope you can handle that.

[Xru]

I just don't think we can have definitive proof that there is a divinity, though I personally believe there is and that people can feel it.

Well if you insist on getting all philosophical on me, ha ha . . . I don't really think that anything can be definitively proven. I deal with weight of evidence.

[Durthorin]

Also, I haven't heard from anyone who is actually pagan/Wiccan! I would love to hear both sides, if anyone is out there! And I would also like an answer to my question about whether an agnostic can still believe in a religion ethically, whatever that religion may be :)

A number of Pagans/Wiccans find themselves in the situation your in. Frankly I often think of it as the first test of faith. Making an altar in your home, brining sacred space into your parents home is a violation of their beliefs. Part of being a Wiccan is a blief in threefold return. That disrespect will come back to haunt you. So you need a place that you can have an altar, then one method is to store a traveling altar in a locker at school and use it outside our in a private space. What you need is a support network, most colleges have pagan groups on campus, some better than others. There is CUUPS as well: Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans (CUUPS) exists in part to promote the practice and understanding of Pagan and Earth-centered Spirituality within the Unitarian Universalist Association. If you find yourself on a more Gnostic Christian path the UUs tend to also have connections in that direction as well.

Blessed Be, Dur

[Jedidiah]

That's his codename. His REAL name is Alouishis Herkamir McGrackle.

At least he did not get burdened with a real stinker of a name.

[Xru]

Originally posted by Soyeong I think this does a much better job of setting the stage for a rational discussion than CP's example with his daughter. I was hoping it was obvious that I was giving a good example of how NOT to do it! Ttwo, I'm also hoping you realize some of us really like each other and love to give grief! I hope you can handle that.

Ya . . . it's kind'a like a bunch of pre-adolescent boys (12'ish) in a locker room hitting each other on the arm and then laughing!

Not that I'd do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!1

BTW, there are some threads I've read that I'm just sure they are seriously pounding each other . . . . and come to find out that they are all friends and they are just jerking each others chains

I guess that's fun for some people . . . not me though. I'm much too mature, aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[ttwo]

Sorry I was gone so long, I had stuff to do and then I had to sleep! You guys are seriously funny, I love how you can joke around with each other :) I'm glad to hear all the bantering is in fun though! :)

I think short of God showing Himself to us, we can't prove that He exists, but that doesn't mean we can't have good reasons for believing that He does exist.

Very good point.

There is an effort by materialists to say that you can't be rational and spiritual at the same time, but I think that stems from them not understanding spirituality. There are rational reasons for believing in things we don't directly observe, and someone might disagree that they are good reasons, but that does mean that they are no longer rational reasons.

I don't see a reason why any particular level of mysticism implies that something is not true. If something is true, it stands on it's own merits, and being too _______ doesn't imply anything about whether or not it is true. Likewise, feeling that there is something more than what we can see in front of us has no impact on the truth of whether or not there is.

I think I got caught up in that. For some reason it's been drilled in me that you can't be rational and spiritual at the same time, and it's not a very good feeling because I do feel spiritual...but I'm not an idiot. Thanks for reminding me that you don't have to choose.

if you do believe that there is some God out there (but think that we can't really know for sure or at all), then you still have a rational basis for holding to moral truths.

Also a good point.

[Xru]

I'm glad to hear all the bantering is in fun though! :)

Not always . . . ahem. There are some threads like NS301 and Tekonics that can get very nasty . . . just remember to put your hardhat on when ya go there;)

The nasty ones are all atheists (ahem) and the nice ones and patient ones are Christians . . . Not! Ha ha. If'n you are really offended by someone ya can allways put them on your ignore list. I got two on mine . . . a really nasty NS301 Troll (guess who everyone) and an atheist Troll. You'll find out who they are soon enough.

Best to ya, Xru

[ttwo]

A number of Pagans/Wiccans find themselves in the situation your in. Frankly I often think of it as the first test of faith. Making an altar in your home, brining sacred space into your parents home is a violation of their beliefs. Part of being a Wiccan is a blief in threefold return. That disrespect will come back to haunt you. So you need a place that you can have an altar, then one method is to store a traveling altar in a locker at school and use it outside our in a private space. What you need is a support network, most colleges have pagan groups on campus, some better than others. There is CUUPS as well: Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans (CUUPS) exists in part to promote the practice and understanding of Pagan and Earth-centered Spirituality within the Unitarian Universalist Association. If you find yourself on a more Gnostic Christian path the UUs tend to also have connections in that direction as well.

Blessed Be, Dur

I'm sorry I haven't responded to you yet, I didn't see your post until now! I agree, I definitely can't set up an altar in my home, but I didn't think of having a traveling one outside of home. That is an option to explore. And I think I'll check out the groups at my university to see if there are any pagan ones :) One of my friends pointed me to a local UU church, so we shall see how that goes! Thank you for the information :)

[Durthorin]

Not a problem, wish you well.

Blessed be, Dur

[Catholicity]

Also, I haven't heard from anyone who is actually pagan/Wiccan! I would love to hear both sides, if anyone is out there! And I would also like an answer to my question about whether an agnostic can still believe in a religion ethically, whatever that religion may be :)

ttwo;
I can offer some advice to you from several point of views. But a fair warning it will come from a former "solitary" and I am now an active Catholic Christian. If you'd still like to hear it, let me know. Secondly can you be an agnostic and still believe in a religion? Well I'd like to pose a few questions to you.
1) What are you agnostic about? God? Morality? The End of Life? The beginning? All of it? There are times when each of us appears "agnostic" a, the prefix for without, gnos the root for knowledge, or in other words "without knowledge" Thus in its truest sense each one of us does soul searching from time to time while clinging deeply to our religious beliefs and not understanding or not knowing the finer points. But it can become a thin tight rope to walk. For example in a moral term, choosing to remain undecided or "indifferent" while clinging to religion can in effect become hypocrisy for some people, though not all. And still others directly choose to go through the religious motions of whatever they believe, and never decide firmly for themselves what they believe in their heart, and this can (if the person is of complete sound mind) pose a problem. It is a tight rope to walk. And one that when I am soul searching I choose to remain on my knees in prayer with what I know, and actively seek answers so as to attempt to avoid just merely "sitting on the religious fence" But since I am human I am far from perfect.
If you still want other advice, or would like a glimmer of why I chose to seek Christianity instead, I'll be happy to tell you my reasoning and some experiences I had that lead me to choose the Christian life. Peace be with you.

[shunyadragon]

Hello! I'm new to this site, and from what I have read so far I really love it, the discussions are great :) I need some help however, I have so many questions that I almost don't know where to begin.

Here is the short of it: I was raised evangelical Christian but have discovered a few years ago that it is simply not the right path for me at all. It was not spiritually fulfilling and I just couldn't believe in what I was being told, though I tried (I am not saying this is everyone's experience with Christianity, but it was mine, and I believe that every individual has a different spiritual path that is right for them). Now I am studying religions, in part because I am fascinated with belief systems and in part because I have a desire to "belong" to something, I guess. Or at least know where I stand in my own beliefs.

In my studies of religion and spirituality, I've noticed that I am very drawn to paganism, especially Wicca. I have read numerous books now on these subjects, and their philosophies align with my personal beliefs. I feel that now I am at the point where just reading isn't enough, but I have a slight problem. I am currently completing my bachelor's degree and am living with my parents and my three younger siblings (not by choice, it is a result of unfortunate financial circumstances). My family members are very conservative evangelical Christians. They have no idea that I am not Christian anymore, as I would fear losing my living situation if they were to find out, not to mention losing their support and love for me. Especially if I were to practice Wicca. How can I build an altar in a home where I have no privacy and my beliefs aren't tolerated? How can I even practice? How can I join a coven and lie about where I am and what I'm doing every time I am with them? I feel like I'm leading a double life, one for my family and one for my true self, and it's really making me crazy :(

Also, I consider myself a spiritual agnostic. I don't think we can rationally prove that divinity exists or doesn't exist, but in my own experience I have felt a strong pull towards spirituality and personally believe that there is divinity in our world. Is it even ethical for me, as an agnostic, to practice a religion? How can I reconcile my rationality with my desire for spirituality? Part of me says "religion is way to mystical to ever be true," but another part of me just feels that there's something more than what we can see in front of us. I struggle greatly with this. Any thoughts? Sorry this is so long!

I would not search for the 'belief' that is personally most fulfilling, because if you find the shoes that personally you fill fit you, they are most likely not the shoes that will lead you to the universal, or greater sense of spiritually that would be closer to the reality you will likely never achieve. The shoes that are uncomfortable, and do not fit may be closer to the truth, and better yet, no shoes at all. It is like getting in touch with reality is like taking a walk in the rain without your hat.

I believe the different religions of the world from the first primal beliefs of the glimmers of the human spirit to the diversity of religions we have today represent the human journey to commune with the Divine, each one is a step up the mountain, but no single ancient belief will take you to the top if you stop, you must continue to follow 'the light' and search to reach the Middle mountain where you can see all mountains.

At present I believe in the Baha'i (follower of light) Faith, but continue the journey up the mountain, knowing that it is best not to stop searching, nor leave any stone unturned.