This Generation

[reyvin]

Revelation 20:1-3

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

As you can see, Revelation 20 is in the past tense. But of course it's a vision rather than a video recording of a historical event, so the fact that John saw it in the past doesn't tell us if it's describing something that happens in the past, present, future, or all of the above.

Hey RBerman,

Long pause on this response, I know. :)

But what does 'the nations' refer to? Does it not mean people? If it simply means people, how can we say Satan is bound? I'm sorry again, it's still a bit confusing.

Let me rewind for my own clarity's sake.

- If Satan is bound as to no longer deceive the nations, when did it occur? I'd assume 70 AD to be the answer? If he is no longer deceiving the nations, as the text says, what is the definition of nations? If it's people, then why would you don the 'full armor of God', as my original question asks?
- It's clear though, that Jesus himself talks about Satan being bound during his ministry with the parable of the strong man that you'd brought up but....that would make nonsense of the 70AD date, wouldn't it? If it was prior (say, at calvary), then we're back to the problem of Ephesians and the armor of God talk.

Ugh. Still confused.

[reyvin]

Sorry for the double but what do you think of this?: http://www.the-highway.com/rev20c_Venema.html
Is that more or less what you guys are referring to?

[reyvin]

Ah wait....I've one more (now I've GOT to apologize again for a triple post!) - If the binding referred to in Luke is the same as the one in Revelation 20, does that not blunt the argument about Revelation 20 referring to nations only? Because in Luke, it was a specific person Jesus was freeing, not a nation.

[RBerman]

But what does 'the nations' refer to? Does it not mean people? If it simply means people, how can we say Satan is bound? I'm sorry again, it's still a bit confusing.

Let me rewind for my own clarity's sake.

- If Satan is bound as to no longer deceive the nations, when did it occur? I'd assume 70 AD to be the answer? If he is no longer deceiving the nations, as the text says, what is the definition of nations? If it's people, then why would you don the 'full armor of God', as my original question asks?

- It's clear though, that Jesus himself talks about Satan being bound during his ministry with the parable of the strong man that you'd brought up but....that would make nonsense of the 70AD date, wouldn't it? If it was prior (say, at calvary), then we're back to the problem of Ephesians and the armor of God talk.

That all depends on how broadly you want to read each metaphor. "Satan being bound" simply means that Christ's saving mission was successful, and Christ has rescued his people (called out of all nations) from the power of Satan. It doesn't mean that Satan does absolutely nothing now. So yes, I understand the binding of Satan to be a reference to the results of Jesus' earthly ministry, including his death and resurrection., which ushered in the new millenium-- the new age.

[seanD]

That all depends on how broadly you want to read each metaphor. "Satan being bound" simply means that Christ's saving mission was successful, and Christ has rescued his people (called out of all nations) from the power of Satan. It doesn't mean that Satan does absolutely nothing now. So yes, I understand the binding of Satan to be a reference to the results of Jesus' earthly ministry, including his death and resurrection., which ushered in the new millenium-- the new age.

I thought you held post-mil beliefs?

[RBerman]

I thought you held post-mil beliefs?

I am amillenial, perhaps with post-mill leanings but not strongly so.

[seanD]

I am amillenial, perhaps with post-mill leanings but not strongly so.

So how would you interpret Rev 20:3 in association to what you said in your last post? That verse doesn't say he still has "a little" power. It sounds to me like it’s clearly saying satan can do absolutely nothing.

[RBerman]

So how would you interpret Rev 20:3 in association to what you said in your last post? That verse doesn't say he still has "a little" power. It sounds to me like it’s clearly saying satan can do absolutely nothing.

Reve 20:1-3 doesn't say either of those things. It uses a metaphor of an angel and a key and a pit and a chain "that he might deceive the nations no more." It doesn't say "he can do absolutely nothing." It doesn't say "he has a little power" or "he has a lot of power" or anything of that sort. It's a vision consisting of prophetic imagery.

[seanD]

Reve 20:1-3 doesn't say either of those things. It uses a metaphor of an angel and a key and a pit and a chain "that he might deceive the nations no more." It doesn't say "he can do absolutely nothing." It doesn't say "he has a little power" or "he has a lot of power" or anything of that sort. It's a vision consisting of prophetic imagery.

You're beginning to sound more and more like a liberal Christian, only you argue against literalism where it's convenient for you. Okay, let's go with the imagery. Keys suggest to me a place that no one has access to. The imagery in the passage -- his seizure, the keys, the chains, cast into a place no one else has access, shut up, sealed shut -- tells me it's going out of its way to emphasize the point that he's powerless and incapable of doing what he was capable of doing before. Surely you're not suggesting Satan had exceptional sovereign power before Christ? So, the fact that he is completely sealed up as the passage says, what is different about him now than before? History continues to roll on, in fact, because of technology, it's gotten more savage and destructive than even BCE. The deception has gotten even more sophisticated than before and theistic belief is being subverted with this modernization. The nations are still being deceived, are they not?

[RBerman]

You're beginning to sound more and more like a liberal Christian, only you argue against literalism where it's convenient for you. Okay, let's go with the imagery. Keys suggest to me a place that no one has access to. The imagery in the passage -- his seizure, the keys, the chains, cast into a place no one else has access, shut up, sealed shut -- tells me it's going out of its way to emphasize the point that he's powerless and incapable of doing what he was capable of doing before. Surely you're not suggesting Satan had exceptional sovereign power before Christ? So, the fact that he is completely sealed up as the passage says, what is different about him now than before? History continues to roll on, in fact, because of technology, it's gotten more savage and destructive than even BCE. The deception has gotten even more sophisticated than before and theistic belief is being subverted with this modernization. The nations are still being deceived, are they not?

I do argue against literalism in apocalyptic and symbolic literature. If that's your definition of "liberal" then I guess you'll consider me liberal. The image in Revelation 20:1-3 is simply one of the defeated rival.

[seanD]

I do argue against literalism in apocalyptic and symbolic literature. If that's your definition of "liberal" then I guess you'll consider me liberal. The image in Revelation 20:1-3 is simply one of the defeated rival.

You didn't answer the question, RB. It's actually two-fold. How is he not deceiving the nations? And how is he defeated? How is his defeat -- his seizure, the keys, the chains, cast into a place no one else has access, shut up, sealed shut -- different now than before? Why were the apostles constantly warning us about his deception?

[RBerman]

You didn't answer the question, RB. It's actually two-fold. How is he not deceiving the nations? And how is he defeated? How is his defeat -- his seizure, the keys, the chains, cast into a place no one else has access, shut up, sealed shut -- different now than before? Why were the apostles constantly warning us about his deception?

He is defeated in Jesus' death and resurrection, which rescues the saints from the power of sin and condemnation. Satan wants God's people to suffer; Christ defeated that plan. The gospel has gone forth into the world, and God is calling his children from every tribe, nation, and tongue. That's the sense in which the nations are no longer deceived. It doesn't mean everyone everywhere accepts the gospel.

[seanD]

He is defeated in Jesus' death and resurrection, which rescues the saints from the power of sin and condemnation. Satan wants God's people to suffer; Christ defeated that plan. The gospel has gone forth into the world, and God is calling his children from every tribe, nation, and tongue. That's the sense in which the nations are no longer deceived. It doesn't mean everyone everywhere accepts the gospel.

You're not only interpreting it in a customized way I would expect from someone like Ty, but almost completely ignoring everything the passage is saying. The imagery in the passage is clearly emphasizing (over-emphasizing) Satan's incapacitation of deception, yet the apostles still warned us of his deception. Even your interpretation of it isn't true. Christians are still suffering, still subjected to worldly opposition, sometimes excessively and very cruelly. Many Christians are falling away and becoming apostates because of the snares of modernization. The imagery in the passage is emphasizing more than just a spiritual metaphor for salvation from condemnation through Christ and the gospel being preached to the world (an image we already got in Rev previously).

[RBerman]

You're not only interpreting it in a customized way I would expect from someone like Ty, but almost completely ignoring everything the passage is saying. The imagery in the passage is clearly emphasizing (over-emphasizing) Satan's incapacitation of deception, yet the apostles still warned us of his deception. Even your interpretation of it isn't true. Christians are still suffering, still subjected to worldly opposition, sometimes excessively and very cruelly. Many Christians are falling away and becoming apostates because of the snares of modernization. The imagery in the passage is emphasizing more than just a spiritual metaphor for salvation from condemnation through Christ and the gospel being preached to the world (an image we already got in Rev previously).

Revelation is a very repetitve book, coming back to the same themes and even the same scenes repeatedly.Beyond that, we simply disagree as to what to read into the images.

[reyvin]

Did you get a chance to read the link I'd posted earlier? It sounds a lot like what you're saying. I found another that was pretty helpful to me in this case also: http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/joll...tan_bound.html

Also, Kenneth Gentry has a good piece on it in his defense in the Four Views book on the topic