A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

[seer]

You said "gods subjective opinion." So, are morals gods subjective opinions, or are they objective facts?

They are not objective facts. The sun is an objective fact.

So, god itself has no choice in the matter concerning what is good or what is evil? That would mean that morals are independent of god, not dependent.

What, how did you get there? There are no independent moral facts, nor can there be, moral concepts are mind dependent. How could they be otherwise? Where does "thou shall not murder" live - behind Mars?

[JimL]

They are not objective facts. The sun is an objective fact.

Our opinions concerning morality are subjective, but what is to the good or to the bad of human society, ergo for human beings, is not subjective, even if subjectively we don't know which is true. The ways that we behave, just like the sun, are objective.

What, how did you get there? There are no independent moral facts, nor can there be, moral concepts are mind dependent. How could they be otherwise? Where does "thou shall not murder" live - behind Mars?

Our individual opinions concerning what is good or what is bad are mind dependent, but what is actually good or bad with respect to the best interests of human existence is not mind dependent. Morals are not concrete things, they are descriptive of moral behaviors which are. You are confusing the moral idea with the moral act.

[seer]

Our opinions concerning morality are subjective, but what is to the good or to the bad of human society, ergo for human beings, is not subjective, even if subjectively we don't know which is true. The ways that we behave, just like the sun, are objective.

No Jim, the idea that humanity should even survive is subjective. And yes behaviors are objective whether a particular behavior is right or wrong is subjective.

Our individual opinions concerning what is good or what is bad are mind dependent, but what is actually good or bad with respect to the best interests of human existence is not mind dependent. Morals are not concrete things, they are descriptive of moral behaviors which are. You are confusing the moral idea with the moral act.

It is in the best interest of humanity to survive, whether our survival is a moral good or not is subjective. And why not the best interest of the few and the powerful?

[JimL]

No Jim, the idea that humanity should even survive is subjective.

Yes, thats because it is only an idea. Idea's, in and of themselves, are subjective.

And yes behaviors are objective whether a particular behavior is right or wrong is subjective.

No, the opinion as to whether or not a behavior is good or bad is subjective, but whether or not the behavior is actually good or bad is not subjective. Good and Bad are relative to to the subject, in this case to human society, so behaviors are either to the good, or to the bad of human society, of human beings, because they can't be both.

[Tassman]

No Jim, the idea that humanity should even survive is subjective. And yes behaviors are objective whether a particular behavior is right or wrong is subjective.

It is in the best interest of humanity to survive, whether our survival is a moral good or not is subjective.

See above.

And why not the best interest of the few and the powerful?

Granted this happens but it perverts the purpose of morality, which evolved as a means of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups essential for the survival of the species. .

[seer]

Yes, thats because it is only an idea. Idea's, in and of themselves, are subjective.

Well I'm glad you agree that whether the survival of humanity is a moral good or not is subjective

No, the opinion as to whether or not a behavior is good or bad is subjective, but whether or not the behavior is actually good or bad is not subjective. Good and Bad are relative to to the subject, in this case to human society, so behaviors are either to the good, or to the bad of human society, of human beings, because they can't be both.

Jim, if the very survival of humanity is a subjective question I don't see how this would be meaningful in an objective sense. But again, the general good of humanity is a personal opinion, why not the general good of the few and powerful?

[seer]

Granted this happens but it perverts the purpose of morality, which evolved as a means of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups essential for the survival of the species. .

That is just stupid there is no "purpose" - the higher primates do just fine with the selfish alpha males running roughshod over the group. Taking what they want, when they want. How many times do we need to go through this Tass?

[Tassman]

That is just stupid there is no "purpose" - the higher primates do just fine with the selfish alpha males running roughshod over the group. Taking what they want, when they want. How many times do we need to go through this Tass?

[seer]

Like Trump, you mean?

Well he certainly is an alpha male, unlike some...

The point is you can have social cohesion with the alpha males running the show.

[JimL]

Well I'm glad you agree that whether the survival of humanity is a moral good or not is subjective

Not sure how you come up with this stuff seer. Survival is the end, morality is the means, and it is the means that are objective. Don't confuse the two! It is an objective fact that a moral against murder is in the best interests of human society, and human survival.

Jim, if the very survival of humanity is a subjective question I don't see how this would be meaningful in an objective sense.

I understand that you don't see it, not something I can force upon you.

But again, the general good of humanity is a personal opinion, why not the general good of the few and powerful?

Because the majority will always rise up against the injustice of the immoral few.

[seer]

Because the majority will always rise up against the injustice of the immoral few.

We that is just silly Jim, first that doesn't always happen - look at Cuba, China, North Korea or the Roman empire for that matter. Second, again, it is your subjective opinion that ethics should serve the greater good as opposed to serving the privileged few.

[Tassman]

Well he certainly is an alpha male, unlike some...

You say that like it's a good thing.

The point is you can have social cohesion with the alpha males running the show.

The point is that, as a social species, social cohesion is what morality is all about.

[seer]

You say that like it's a good thing.

And you say it like it is a bad thing! Trump is just your average silver back doing what nature determined him to do! I just don't get it Tass, why do you hate nature so much?

The point is that, as a social species, social cohesion is what morality is all about.

Right with social cohesion maintained by the alpha males controlling the group...

[Tassman]

And you say it like it is a bad thing! Trump is just your average silver back doing what nature determined him to do!

No, YOU said it was a bad thing that alpha male gorillas run roughshod over the group (like Donald Trump). It works just fine in gorilla society, not so well in human society.

I just don't get it Tass, why do you hate nature so much?

It's you, not me who claims that human nature is innately sinful and bad. All because of Adam and Eve if I rightly recall.

Right with social cohesion maintained by the alpha males controlling the group...

Totalitarian societies work, although there are better ways. The crucial thing is the maintenance of social cohesion to ensure the survival of the family and community, so that the human species survives. This is why we devise the rules of behaviour we call morality.

[seer]

No, YOU said it was a bad thing that alpha male gorillas run roughshod over the group (like Donald Trump). It works just fine in gorilla society, not so well in human society.

Where did I say it was a bad thing (it may be but not for the reasons you believe). And what are you talking about - of course it works well in human society - for most of human history that is exactly how it worked - the few and powerful controlling the masses. You know, like liberals try to do today...

It's you, not me who claims that human nature is innately sinful and bad. All because of Adam and Eve if I rightly recall.

Good, then you have no problem with Trump, how nature determined him to think and act. I will remember this on the Civics board

Totalitarian societies work, although there are better ways.

Really? How do you know? Democracies, as practiced today, are fairly new - they may not survive into the future. We know that Totalitarian systems did work in history, for very long periods of times.