A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

[seer]

Rape, theft and violence is more predominant in human cultures than other primates.

Could be, but they are still derived from instinct.

[shunyadragon]

Could be, but they are still derived from instinct.

I thought from the traditional Christian perspective it was derived from Original Sin and the Fall.

[seer]

I thought from the traditional Christian perspective it was derived from Original Sin and the Fall.

No, I'm working with Tass' presupposition of atheism.

[shunyadragon]

No, I'm working with Tass' presupposition of atheism.

It does not work if your beliefs are not upfront and clear.

The presupposition of Methodological Naturalism and objective verifiable evidence trumps the religious view of Original Sin and the Fall.

It actually supports Tass' worldview to the degree that his philosophical assumption on Philosophical Naturalism must be made without evidence.

[Tassman]

I believe the precursors of human and primate morality and ethics in the evolution of instinctive behavior, but 'being purely instinctive' is an over simplification. There is sufficient evidence that though simpler morality and ethics in primates, they are sufficiently similar to human morality and ethics that such clear distinction cannot be made.

I agree. The only distinction I was making is that humans are sufficiently intelligent to classify the "morality and ethics in primates" as a formalised moral system, whereas the lessor primates are not.

[seer]

It does not work if your beliefs are not upfront and clear.

You know my beliefs and that I often use my opponent's world view

The presupposition of Methodological Naturalism and objective verifiable evidence trumps the religious view of Original Sin and the Fall.

Prove it. In any case it does not disprove sin, i.e. that there is something wrong in and with man. Both our religions teach such.

It actually supports Tass' worldview to the degree that his philosophical assumption on Philosophical Naturalism must be made without evidence.

What?

[Tassman]

Prove it. In any case it does not disprove sin, i.e. that there is something wrong in and with man.

What is that is not wrong in and with say, the average chimpanzee?

[seer]

What is that is not wrong in and with say, the average chimpanzee?

OK, so you don't believe things like rape, murder, stealing, greed, selfishness, etc... are wrong. Got it...

[Tassman]

OK, so you don't believe things like rape, murder, stealing, greed, selfishness, etc... are wrong. Got it...

They are in modern human society, generally speaking, they weren't necessarily so in Moses' time. So what's your basis for claiming: "That there is something wrong in and with man"?

[seer]

They are in modern human society, generally speaking, they weren't necessarily so in Moses' time. So what's your basis for claiming: "That there is something wrong in and with man"?

OK, I just need a direct answer - when men murder, rape, steal, etc.. (which we still do today) it does not point to there being something wrong in our nature? So they point to something good in man?

[Tassman]

OK, I just need a direct answer - when men murder, rape, steal, etc.. (which we still do today) it does not point to there being something wrong in our nature? So they point to something good in man?

n and with man"? Direct answer please.

[seer]

But if we do not acculturate or socialize correctly then there is something inherently wrong in man. And how have we moved from the tribal era when we still murder, rape and steal? You are not making sense. And things like rape, murder, stealing were wrong in the Mosaic code, as well as other ancient law codes. So what the heck are you talking about?

Now, once again: Why do you say that there is something wrong in and with man"? Direct answer please.

Of course I am - I'm a Christian, you know that.

[Anomaly]

t ) or false (f ).
4. Form exists in only one unalterable grade of value, True (T), capitalized to identify its precedence and preeminence over I.
5. Inorganic information possesses an immutable t under the supervision of T . It follows that all inorganic matter is Vt.
6. Organic information can exist in either a t or f state. It follows that organic matter is either Vt or Vftt and f values via motion of their respective point-locales from one informational state to another.

The vigor or force of the Vt in opposition to Vf

[Tassman]

But if we do not acculturate or socialize correctly then there is something inherently wrong in man.

The mere fact that we proscribe murder, rape and stealing and maintain Law and Order, indicates that we view it as wrong.

And how have we moved from the tribal era when we still murder, rape and steal? You are not making sense. And things like rape, murder, stealing were wrong in the Mosaic code, as well as other ancient law codes.

Rape, murder, stealing were not wrong in the Mosaic code when it came to annihilating rival tribes.

Of course I am - I'm a Christian, you know that.

[seer]

The mere fact that we proscribe murder, rape and stealing and maintain Law and Order, indicates that we view it as wrong.

So why are you arguing that there isn't something wrong in man when we actually murder, rape, steal, etc...

Rape, murder, stealing were not wrong in the Mosaic code when it came to annihilating rival tribes.

And it isn't wrong today when the Stalinist and Maoist annihilated millions of political enemies. It was no more wrong in their culture as it was in the Mosaic culture.

Yes I have more - history. Unless, again, you don't believe that things like murder, rape, greed, fraud, stealing, etc... are wrong.