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Philosophy 201 Guidelines

Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    So the Roman empire was not totalitarian, where non-Romans literally had no rights?
    Yes, the Roman Empire was not always totally totalitarian, and it had an extensive legal system that did give legal rights to its citizens.

    Regardless of whether kingdoms, regimes, empires, countries or whatever. They all had laws that preserved the cohesion of the family and community.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Yes, the Roman Empire was not always totally totalitarian, and it had an extensive legal system that did give legal rights to its citizens.
      That is exactly what I said - but non-citizens did not have these rights.

      Regardless of whether kingdoms, regimes, empires, countries or whatever. They all had laws that preserved the cohesion of the family and community.
      Right, societies can remain relatively cohesive even under totalitarian rule.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        So the Roman empire was not totalitarian, where non-Romans literally had no rights? The Ottoman Empire which governed with Sharia law? And no nation or empire is without problems. We had a Civil war that cost 600,000 lives, the English had a civil war. Other European countries had civil strife. We have strife in our streets as we speak, as does England and France, as does Sweden. Yet cohesion is maintained, generally. As it was with totalitarian regimes.
        Since none of the countries mentioned are both current and totalitarian, as I said, seer is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries.

        By citing the US civil war nearly two centuries ago and the English civil war nearly four centuries ago, in comparison with the much more recent uprisings in totalitarian countries such as Iran, China and Cuba, seer has refuted his own claim.

        It's all over apart from seer's endless empty assertions, which can be ignored.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Since none of the countries mentioned are both current and totalitarian, as I said, seer is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries.

          By citing the US civil war nearly two centuries ago and the English civil war nearly four centuries ago, in comparison with the much more recent uprisings in totalitarian countries such as Iran, China and Cuba, seer has refuted his own claim.

          It's all over apart from seer's endless empty assertions, which can be ignored.
          You really are daft, I gave a list of Empires that lasted centuries and if you do think Empires like the Roman or Ottoman were totalitarian then you are either clueless or dishonest.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            That is exactly what I said - but non-citizens did not have these rights.
            That is basically, but not exclusively true throughout history, even today. Illegal non-citizens lack the same rights as citizens in contemporary societies. Nonetheless the citizens of Rome including slave had specific protected rights under Roman Law.


            Right, societies can remain relatively cohesive even under totalitarian rule.
            True, relative cohesion is a factor that laws and order rule and elements of Justice are factors in most of the history of human existence regardless of whether the government is totalitarian or not.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-18-2017, 12:44 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post


              Abstract moral principles only come from minds. Whether our minds or the Mind of God.
              The bottom line is that, regardless of whether the social system in force is totalitarian or democratic, the maintenance of communal living is the evolved instinct of all social creatures...including us. Moral principles are an extension of (and supported by) evolutionary theory.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Moral principles are an extension of (and supported by) evolutionary theory.
                That is the point Tass, there are no moral "principles" in the animal kingdom, just behavior. And no standard for right or wrong. When one group of chimps kills another group of chimps that take their territory and females that is not a moral wrong. It just is.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  That is the point Tass, there are no moral "principles" in the animal kingdom, just behavior. And no standard for right or wrong. When one group of chimps kills another group of chimps that take their territory and females that is not a moral wrong. It just is.
                  Do you consider this also true of humanity? What you describe vary similar, as It is done in the Bible.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Do you consider this also true of humanity? What you describe vary similar, as It is done in the Bible.
                    If God orders or causes the destruction a wicked population then the act is just. If men do it for greed or selfish reasons (not self defense) then it is unjust and immoral. And remember Shuny, Moses was a manifestation of God - right? But if Tass is correct none of it is actually unjust.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      That is the point Tass, there are no moral "principles" in the animal kingdom, just behavior. And no standard for right or wrong. When one group of chimps kills another group of chimps that take their territory and females that is not a moral wrong. It just is.
                      Moses did the same thing to rival tribes under the alleged justification of his tribal god. We can always rationalise our bad behaviour and god is always on our side, isn't that right seer?
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        If God orders or causes the destruction a wicked population then the act is just. If men do it for greed or selfish reasons (not self defense) then it is unjust and immoral. And remember Shuny, Moses was a manifestation of God - right? But if Tass is correct none of it is actually unjust.
                        Of course, I will not always agree with Tassman.

                        That was not the point of my statement. You are describing very distinctive similarities between human and primate behavior, and side step the actual observed evidence of primate positive behavior similar to human behavior concerning primate cooperation, justice and compassion for fellow primates. Simply your basing your argument on your justification of your agenda is not a good argument.

                        Not sure where this fits in the argument, but yes Baha'is believe in Moses as a manifestation of God, but the Biblical account is not necessarily accurate.

                        Our morals and ethics come from two sources, Progressive Revelation through the soul, and evolution of morals and ethics of the mind. Baha'is believe God creates naturally, and that humans including the mind evolved naturally.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Our morals and ethics come from two sources, Progressive Revelation through the soul, and evolution of morals and ethics of the mind. Baha'is believe God creates naturally, and that humans including the mind evolved naturally.
                          Well at least you agree that ethics partly come from Revelation, I think we can agree on that.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Well at least you agree that ethics partly come from Revelation, I think we can agree on that.
                            I believe the human soul is the supreme Talisman of God, but also we have evolved both spiritually and physically over time.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              If God orders or causes the destruction a wicked population then the act is just. If men do it for greed or selfish reasons (not self defense) then it is unjust and immoral.
                              It is not uncommon in history for ethnic cleansing, of the sort we saw with Moses, to be attributed to the will of God. This is simply rationalising human tribal behaviour. Our fellow primates do the same, although without the need or ability to involve a deity.

                              And remember Shuny, Moses was a manifestation of God - right? But if Tass is correct none of it is actually unjust.
                              It’s unjust if society says it’s unjust.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                If God orders or causes the destruction a wicked population then the act is just. If men do it for greed or selfish reasons (not self defense) then it is unjust and immoral. And remember Shuny, Moses was a manifestation of God - right? But if Tass is correct none of it is actually unjust.
                                The Israelites were no less greedy and selfish than any of the other tribes, they just happened to win out and credited their booty, and laid their sins, at the feet of their war god YHWY. Had one of the other tribes won out in the end then they would have credited their god as well and you'd probably be worshipping Moluch today.

                                Comment

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