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Thread: A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

  1. #401
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So cohesion can't be the bottom line according to your beliefs. And all other creatures survive just fine with out conceptual ideas of ethics.
    Morals are simply rules of behaviour. They derive from the instinctive needs of self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. We see the precursors of such behaviour among our fellow primates, but the higher intelligence of humans enables us conceptualise it. But as you say, other creatures survive without conceptualised ideas of ethics....just as they survive without pop-up toasters or smart-phones.

    So, again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Morals are simply rules of behaviour. They derive from the instinctive needs of self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. We see the precursors of such behaviour among our fellow primates, but the higher intelligence of humans enables us conceptualise it. But as you say, other creatures survive without conceptualised ideas of ethics....just as they survive without pop-up toasters or smart-phones.
    No Tass, I'm not letting you off the hook. You constantly point to social cohesion as the goal for moral behavior yet you don't personally believe that because you are perfectly fine with upsetting said cohesion for a cause you agree with. So even by your own lights cohesion can't be the bottom line. So what is?

    When the white flame in us is gone,
    And we that lost the world's delight
    Stiffen in darkness, left alone
    To crumble in our separate night;

    When your swift hair is quiet in death,
    And through the lips corruption thrust
    Has stilled the labour of my breath --
    When we are dust, when we are dust...
    Rupert Brooke



  3. #403
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Again Shuny, your religion teaches something similar:

    So Adam has infected all of mankind.
    Being similar is not remotely the same. Your habit of selectively quoting, misrepresenting, and attacking those who believe differently to justify your personal agenda continues unabated.

    No like all humanity in the vast history of millions of years of humanity we inherited our fallible imperfect human nature.


    Source: http://www.religionfacts.com/evil/bahai[/url




    The Bahá'í Faith rejects the concept of "original sin" or any doctrine that teaches people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development.

    However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. `Abdu'l-Bahá said that "evil is imperfection."

    The Bahá'í Faith denies the existence of Satan, a devil, or an "evil force." Evil does not have independent existence, but is rather the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

    Bahá'u'lláh explained that references to Satan in the Scriptures of earlier religions are symbolic and should not be taken literally. Satan is the personification of man's lower nature which can destroy him if it is not brought into harmony with his spiritual nature. There is, in fact, a well-known philosophical problem concerning God's goodness and omnipotence and the possible existence of a Satan. This problem is discussed in some detail in both the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá.

    © Copyright Original Source




    Source: https://bahai9.com/wiki/Adam#Allegorical_statements_and_legends_surround_the_historical_Manifestation_of_God.2C_Adam


    Bahá’u’lláh is the Culmination of the Adamic Cycle and the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle

    "The Adamic Cycle inaugurated 6000 years ago by the Manifestation of God called Adam is only one of the many bygone cycles. Bahá’u’lláh, as you say, is the culmination of the Adamic Cycle. He is also the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle.

    "Obviously there must have been Prophets and Manifestations in the ages preceding the Adamic Cycle. This is supported by the following statement revealed by Bahá’u’lláh.

    'And now regarding thy question, "How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the Kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?" Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.'

    (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 13, 1986, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1683)

    © Copyright Original Source



    Most world views including the Baha'i Faith, Atheists and Agnostics, believe humans are imperfect and are capable of doing bad things, but the good out ways the and humans survive and life goes on. Just because humans do bad things does not justify your world view.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-13-2017 at 01:17 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #404
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Being similar is not remotely the same. Your habit of selectively quoting, misrepresenting, and attacking those who believe differently to justify your personal agenda continues unabated.

    No like all humanity in the vast history of millions of years of humanity we inherited our fallible imperfect human nature.
    Shuny nothing you said changed a thing I posted. Your religion teaches that we are all descendants of Adam and that Adam's bondage (sin) is inherited by us all. Whether you call it evil or not changes nothing. Adam infected us all with this bondage or as the link said - sin.


    Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

    And stop being a hypocrite, you attack my religion every chance you get.

    When the white flame in us is gone,
    And we that lost the world's delight
    Stiffen in darkness, left alone
    To crumble in our separate night;

    When your swift hair is quiet in death,
    And through the lips corruption thrust
    Has stilled the labour of my breath --
    When we are dust, when we are dust...
    Rupert Brooke



  5. #405
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny nothing you said changed a thing I posted. Your religion teaches that we are all descendants of Adam and that Adam's bondage (sin) is inherited by us all. Whether you call it evil or not changes nothing. Adam infected us all with this bondage or as the link said - sin.


    Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

    And stop being a hypocrite, you attack my religion every chance you get.
    It remains that the biased selective of citations does not reflect the view of the Baha'i Faith in the citations I provided.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. #406
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It remains that the biased selective of citations does not reflect the view of the Baha'i Faith in the citations I provided.
    What are you talking about? Are you saying Abdu’l-Bahá was wrong? And you can read it all in context: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr8

    And your quotes do not undermine Abdu’l-Bahá's point about Adam having a negative effect on all his descendants. Your quotes don't even address that issue.

    When the white flame in us is gone,
    And we that lost the world's delight
    Stiffen in darkness, left alone
    To crumble in our separate night;

    When your swift hair is quiet in death,
    And through the lips corruption thrust
    Has stilled the labour of my breath --
    When we are dust, when we are dust...
    Rupert Brooke



  7. #407
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Tass, I'm not letting you off the hook.
    I’m not letting you off the hook. Again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what? Waiting!

    You constantly point to social cohesion as the goal for moral behavior
    No, ‘survival’ is basis of moral behaviour. The natural evolution of human behaviour predisposes the “survival” of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.

    yet you don't personally believe that because you are perfectly fine with upsetting said cohesion for a cause you agree with. So even by your own lights cohesion can't be the bottom line. So what is?
    Most people, including you, are OK with upsetting the community for a cause they think is just. This doesn’t mean they support the elimination of cohesive communities.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #408
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I’m not letting you off the hook. Again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what? Waiting!
    No Tass, these values are not nebulous, read your New Testament. And they emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from.


    No, ‘survival’ is basis of moral behaviour. The natural evolution of human behaviour predisposes the “survival” of the family and community and cooperation so that the human species survives.
    But you can not even make the case that our survival is an objective moral good!

    Most people, including you, are OK with upsetting the community for a cause they think is just. This doesn’t mean they support the elimination of cohesive communities.
    [/QUOTE]

    See you moved from cohesion to justice. So cohesion is not enough, or the ultimate goal, but your 'nebulous' ideal of justice.

    When the white flame in us is gone,
    And we that lost the world's delight
    Stiffen in darkness, left alone
    To crumble in our separate night;

    When your swift hair is quiet in death,
    And through the lips corruption thrust
    Has stilled the labour of my breath --
    When we are dust, when we are dust...
    Rupert Brooke



  9. #409
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Tass, these values are not nebulous, read your New Testament. And they emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from.
    Not that seer will ever provide any evidence that this mind exists, or that it is the source of moral ideas.
    Mountain Man destroys his own argument:
    "[Glenn Miller's essay] has more than enough facts and data to support the conclusion that Luke's history was bang-on accurate with regards to who conducted the census and when."
    "...there are historical points on which the Bible can't be tested for one reason or another, for instance, cases where the data is incomplete, such as the Lukan census which has a number of plausible solutions but is, at worst, untestable due to a lack of conclusive evidence."

  10. #410
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Not that seer will ever provide any evidence that this mind exists, or that it is the source of moral ideas.
    Define evidence Roy...

    When the white flame in us is gone,
    And we that lost the world's delight
    Stiffen in darkness, left alone
    To crumble in our separate night;

    When your swift hair is quiet in death,
    And through the lips corruption thrust
    Has stilled the labour of my breath --
    When we are dust, when we are dust...
    Rupert Brooke



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