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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    You were being to selective and biased, as usual. You use extreme examples to justify your agenda. In history governments like North Korea ultimately fail. In human history, and in primates cohesion and justice dominate over time, and social cooperation is essential or the community and the species will not survive.
    Nonsense, it could have been Iran as well as North Korea, the point is the same. And you are wrong, for most of History most of mankind has lived under totalitarian rule. And those regimes often last for centuries. So justice is not necessary for cohesion. And many primate groups survive just fine where the alpha males take what they want from whom they want, when they, including females and dominate the group, often violently. So you are clueless once again.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Nonsense, it could have been Iran as well as North Korea, the point is the same. And you are wrong, for most of History most of mankind has lived under totalitarian rule. And those regimes often last for centuries. So justice is not necessary for cohesion. And many primate groups survive just fine where the alpha males take what they want from whom they want, when they, including females and dominate the group, often violently. So you are clueless once again.
      Nonsense seer, you are appealing only to extremes and cite selectively what only that which justifies your own agenda.

      You are neutered by your own methods.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Nonsense seer, you are appealing only to extremes and cite selectively what only that which justifies your own agenda.

        You are neutered by your own methods.
        No idiot, what I said are facts. Monkeys share, monkeys steal, humans share, humans steal. And most men for most of history have lived under totalitarian rule. Justice is not and has not been necessary for social cohesion - period.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So cohesion trumps justice?
          Survival of the species trumps everything.

          What? You mean moral principles don't come from minds?
          Quit evading! What do YOU mean when you argue that moral values come from the New Testament and emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from. Or is this merely a faith belief unsupported by facts?

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          No idiot, what I said are facts. Monkeys share, monkeys steal, humans share, humans steal. And most men for most of history have lived under totalitarian rule. Justice is not and has not been necessary for social cohesion - period.
          The bottom line is that, regardless of the social system in force, the maintenance of communal living is the driving instinct of all social creatures...including us primates.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Survival of the species trumps everything.
            Right, even trumps justice.


            Quit evading! What do YOU mean when you argue that moral values come from the New Testament and emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from. Or is this merely a faith belief unsupported by facts?
            Abstract moral principles only come from minds. Whether our minds or the Mind of God.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              No idiot, what I said are facts. Monkeys share, monkeys steal, humans share, humans steal. And most men for most of history have lived under totalitarian rule. Justice is not and has not been necessary for social cohesion - period.
              Actually true idiot. Primates intimately share human behavior on a more primitive behavior as demonstrated in the other thread, based on research in the wild and under controlled conditions. Also, the requirement social cooperation, learned behavior, and punishment for theft and free loading is most definitely a form of social justice required for the survival of primate species including us and demonstrates the evolution of behavior in primates.

              Even in North Korea there is a system of justice and laws that are necessary for cohesion of the family and community which is universal in human societies and in a more primitive form in primate societies.

              I am not sure what your point is that primates have the same behaviors humans, because that only reinforces my argument. The requirement of social cooperation, laws and justice at the community and family level has pretty much always existed in human societies regardless of whether the government is totalitarian or not.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 07:18 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                I am not sure what your point is that primates have the same behaviors humans, because that only reinforces my argument. The requirement of social cooperation, laws and justice at the community and family level has pretty much always existed in human societies regardless of whether the government is totalitarian or not.
                Yeah monkeys poop, humans poop. Monkeys share, humans share, ants cooperate, humans cooperate - you therefore assume that that it is sufficient to explain human morality, which is based in abstract ethical reasoning. But of course your own religion would deny that, as would mine, since animals do not have a rational soul which is necessary to grasp these abstracts.
                Last edited by seer; 09-17-2017, 10:34 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Yeah monkeys poop, humans poop. Monkeys share, humans share, ants cooperate, humans cooperate - you therefore assume that that it is sufficient to explain human morality, which is based in abstract ethical reasoning. But of course your own religion would deny that, as would mine, since animals do not have a rational soul which is necessary to grasp these abstracts.
                  In the Baha'i writings having a rational soul does not preclude the mind having independent rational capabilities that evolve, and have in common evolved primitive forms social behaviors such as social cooperation, simple forms of social justice in the punishment of theft, and freeloading, which have been observed in the wild and under controlled conditions. The Baha'i writings clearly describe the human mind as independent of the soul.

                  The comparison with ants is invalid, which is covered in the sources, but it does demonstrate in the animal and insect kingdoms, you have the progressive development of complex social behaviors of cooperation.

                  I believe Tassman even overstated the roll of instinct in the behavior of primates. Yes, complex primate and human behavior has its roots in instincts, but instinct and impulse cannot explain the social behavior of some of the higher primates.

                  It does not explain human morality. The research demonstrates that primates have simple forms social behavior that cannot be explained simply by instinct and 'impulse' as some assert.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 01:45 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, even trumps justice.
                    The survival of the species is the priority from which all else follows.

                    Abstract moral principles only come from minds. Whether our minds or the Mind of God.
                    But they don’t emerge from a vacuum. They derive from our evolved instincts of self-preservation and procreation and conceptualised and codified by our minds.
                    Last edited by Tassman; 09-17-2017, 10:45 PM.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Now, justify your claim that “morals emanate from a Mind where all moral ideals emanate from”. Support this claim.
                      What? You mean moral principles don't come from minds?
                      Just another transparent dodge.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Nonsense, it could have been Iran as well as North Korea, the point is the same. And you are wrong, for most of History most of mankind has lived under totalitarian rule. And those regimes often last for centuries.
                        Seer has made this claim before, in this very thread, and it was refuted. He is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries, having tried (and failed) to cite China, North Korea and Cuba, despite all of them having undergone relatively frequent violent changes in government, with the most recent in each case being less than a century ago. His current example, Iran, is even less suitable, having had its government overthrown in 1979.

                        His claim that totalitarian regimes can last for centuries is based partly on his ignorance of history, but mostly on his ignoring it. His worldview requires that totalitarian government leads to stable society, so he makes that claim without regard to whether it is actually true.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No idiot, what I said are facts. Monkeys share, monkeys steal, humans share, humans steal. And most men for most of history have lived under totalitarian rule.
                          And for most of that time societies have been much less cohesive than the democratic societies of today - a fact which seer ignores because it inconveniently refutes his basic premise.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Seer has made this claim before, in this very thread, and it was refuted. He is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries, having tried (and failed) to cite China, North Korea and Cuba, despite all of them having undergone relatively frequent violent changes in government, with the most recent in each case being less than a century ago. His current example, Iran, is even less suitable, having had its government overthrown in 1979.
                            Roy somewhere in our past debate I linked this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_empires

                            It is a list of empires, many of which lasted centuries.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              He is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries
                              Roy somewhere in our past debate I linked this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_empires

                              It is a list of empires, many of which lasted centuries.
                              It is a list of empires that are not necessarily long-lived, nor totalitarian, nor cohesive, nor a single regime. As I said, seer is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries.
                              Last edited by Roy; 09-18-2017, 07:17 AM.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                Long-lived empires are not necessarily totalitarian, cohesive, uninterrupted nor a single regime. As I said, seer is unable to name a single example of a totalitarian rule that has lasted for centuries.
                                So the Roman empire was not totalitarian, where non-Romans literally had no rights? The Ottoman Empire which governed with Sharia law? And no nation or empire is without problems. We had a Civil war that cost 600,000 lives, the English had a civil war. Other European countries had civil strife. We have strife in our streets as we speak, as does England and France, as does Sweden. Yet cohesion is maintained, generally. As it was with totalitarian regimes.
                                Last edited by seer; 09-18-2017, 07:29 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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