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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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A shared challenge regarding the foundation of ethics

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    So why are you arguing that there isn't something wrong in man when we actually murder, rape, steal, etc...
    It is socially undesirable behaviour which is subject to correction when it occurs; it’s not intrinsic to human kind (or any other species) as per the nonsensical theological doctrine of original sin.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      So why are you arguing that there isn't something wrong in man when we actually murder, rape, steal, etc...



      And it isn't wrong today when the Stalinist and Maoist annihilated millions of political enemies. It was no more wrong in their culture as it was in the Mosaic culture.



      Yes I have more - history. Unless, again, you don't believe that things like murder, rape, greed, fraud, stealing, etc... are wrong.
      Actually philosophical Naturalists do better dealing with this than traditional Christians believeing Original Sin and the Fall as the Cause. From the Naturalists perspective violence like murder, rape, greed, fraud, steeling are indeed wrong, but only constitute a minority in terms of human cultures and societies. Of course humans are imperfect and flawed, but they are imperfect and flawed naturally. The positive attributes of culture dominate, therefore the human species survive.

      The traditional Christian theists have the problem of explaining the Fall and Original Sin as the cause, because you have a situation where God place the curse of Original Sin and the suffering of all humanity on the failing of two fallible humans who were set up in the garden, and would eventually fall to temptation regardless.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        It is socially undesirable behaviour which is subject to correction when it occurs; it’s not intrinsic to human kind (or any other species) as per the nonsensical theological doctrine of original sin.
        Tass, if there is not something wrong in man then again why do we rape, murder, steal, lie, etc... If those behaviors don't point to something wrong in us do they then point to something good in man? Or are those behaviors morally neutral?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Tass, if there is not something wrong in man then again why do we rape, murder, steal, lie, etc... If those behaviors don't point to something wrong in us do they then point to something good in man? Or are those behaviors morally neutral?
          Some behaviours such as rape, murdering and theft, while natural, are harmful to the social fabric and therefore we proscribe them. By this means we restrain individual selfishness and build more cooperative groups. This is the basis of our moral code. The precursors of such behaviour can be seen among our fellow primates.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Some behaviours such as rape, murdering and theft, while natural, are harmful to the social fabric and therefore we proscribe them. By this means we restrain individual selfishness and build more cooperative groups. This is the basis of our moral code. The precursors of such behaviour can be seen among our fellow primates.
            Again, if those behaviors don't point to something wrong in us do they then point to something good in man? Or are those behaviors morally neutral?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Actually philosophical Naturalists do better dealing with this than traditional Christians believeing Original Sin and the Fall as the Cause. From the Naturalists perspective violence like murder, rape, greed, fraud, steeling are indeed wrong, but only constitute a minority in terms of human cultures and societies. Of course humans are imperfect and flawed, but they are imperfect and flawed naturally. The positive attributes of culture dominate, therefore the human species survive.

              The traditional Christian theists have the problem of explaining the Fall and Original Sin as the cause, because you have a situation where God place the curse of Original Sin and the suffering of all humanity on the failing of two fallible humans who were set up in the garden, and would eventually fall to temptation regardless.
              Again Shuny, your religion teaches something similar:

              Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

              http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr8
              So Adam has infected all of mankind.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Again, if those behaviors don't point to something wrong in us do they then point to something good in man? Or are those behaviors morally neutral?
                What points to something “good in us” is the recognition that such behaviours are damaging to the social fabric and our communal proscription of such behaviour.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  What points to something “good in us” is the recognition that such behaviours are damaging to the social fabric and our communal proscription of such behaviour.
                  Sheesh Tass, but even our survival is not objectively a moral good. And you really don't believe any of this, because when the left is damaging to the social order for causes you support, you applaud it.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Sheesh Tass, but even our survival is not objectively a moral good. And you really don't believe any of this, because when the left is damaging to the social order for causes you support, you applaud it.
                    Just what is an “objective moral good” to you, seer...nebulous eternal values floating around in the ether? Morals are simply rules of behaviour that derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Just what is an “objective moral good” to you, seer...nebulous eternal values floating around in the ether? Morals are simply rules of behaviour that derive from self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection.
                      Like I said Tass, you don't even believe what you are spouting. You have no problem undermining social cohesion if it for a leftist cause you agree with. So cohesion can't be the bottom line according to your beliefs. And all other creatures survive just fine with out conceptual ideas of ethics.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        So cohesion can't be the bottom line according to your beliefs. And all other creatures survive just fine with out conceptual ideas of ethics.
                        Morals are simply rules of behaviour. They derive from the instinctive needs of self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. We see the precursors of such behaviour among our fellow primates, but the higher intelligence of humans enables us conceptualise it. But as you say, other creatures survive without conceptualised ideas of ethics....just as they survive without pop-up toasters or smart-phones.

                        So, again: just what is 'morality' to you...a nebulous set of eternal values floating around in the ether or values emanating from a deity or what?
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Morals are simply rules of behaviour. They derive from the instinctive needs of self-preservation and procreation and are a consequence of natural selection. We see the precursors of such behaviour among our fellow primates, but the higher intelligence of humans enables us conceptualise it. But as you say, other creatures survive without conceptualised ideas of ethics....just as they survive without pop-up toasters or smart-phones.
                          No Tass, I'm not letting you off the hook. You constantly point to social cohesion as the goal for moral behavior yet you don't personally believe that because you are perfectly fine with upsetting said cohesion for a cause you agree with. So even by your own lights cohesion can't be the bottom line. So what is?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Again Shuny, your religion teaches something similar:

                            So Adam has infected all of mankind.
                            Being similar is not remotely the same. Your habit of selectively quoting, misrepresenting, and attacking those who believe differently to justify your personal agenda continues unabated.

                            No like all humanity in the vast history of millions of years of humanity we inherited our fallible imperfect human nature.


                            Source: http://www.religionfacts.com/evil/bahai[/url




                            The Bahá'í Faith rejects the concept of "original sin" or any doctrine that teaches people are basically evil or have intrinsically evil elements in their nature. All the forces and faculties within us are God-given and thus potentially beneficial to our spiritual development.

                            However, if a person, through his own God-given free will, turns away from this force or fails to make the necessary effort to develop his spiritual capacities, the result is imperfection. `Abdu'l-Bahá said that "evil is imperfection."

                            The Bahá'í Faith denies the existence of Satan, a devil, or an "evil force." Evil does not have independent existence, but is rather the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. Just as the sun is the unique source of all life in a solar system, so ultimately is there only one force or power in the universe, the force we call God.

                            Bahá'u'lláh explained that references to Satan in the Scriptures of earlier religions are symbolic and should not be taken literally. Satan is the personification of man's lower nature which can destroy him if it is not brought into harmony with his spiritual nature. There is, in fact, a well-known philosophical problem concerning God's goodness and omnipotence and the possible existence of a Satan. This problem is discussed in some detail in both the writings of Bahá'u'lláh and `Abdu'l-Bahá.

                            © Copyright Original Source




                            Source: https://bahai9.com/wiki/Adam#Allegorical_statements_and_legends_surround_the_historical_Manifestation_of_God.2C_Adam


                            Bahá’u’lláh is the Culmination of the Adamic Cycle and the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle

                            "The Adamic Cycle inaugurated 6000 years ago by the Manifestation of God called Adam is only one of the many bygone cycles. Bahá’u’lláh, as you say, is the culmination of the Adamic Cycle. He is also the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle.

                            "Obviously there must have been Prophets and Manifestations in the ages preceding the Adamic Cycle. This is supported by the following statement revealed by Bahá’u’lláh.

                            'And now regarding thy question, "How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the Kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?" Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.'

                            (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 13, 1986, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1683)

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            Most world views including the Baha'i Faith, Atheists and Agnostics, believe humans are imperfect and are capable of doing bad things, but the good out ways the and humans survive and life goes on. Just because humans do bad things does not justify your world view.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-13-2017, 07:17 AM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Being similar is not remotely the same. Your habit of selectively quoting, misrepresenting, and attacking those who believe differently to justify your personal agenda continues unabated.

                              No like all humanity in the vast history of millions of years of humanity we inherited our fallible imperfect human nature.
                              Shuny nothing you said changed a thing I posted. Your religion teaches that we are all descendants of Adam and that Adam's bondage (sin) is inherited by us all. Whether you call it evil or not changes nothing. Adam infected us all with this bondage or as the link said - sin.


                              Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

                              And stop being a hypocrite, you attack my religion every chance you get.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Shuny nothing you said changed a thing I posted. Your religion teaches that we are all descendants of Adam and that Adam's bondage (sin) is inherited by us all. Whether you call it evil or not changes nothing. Adam infected us all with this bondage or as the link said - sin.


                                Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

                                And stop being a hypocrite, you attack my religion every chance you get.
                                It remains that the biased selective of citations does not reflect the view of the Baha'i Faith in the citations I provided.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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