Discussing Dispensationalism

[Manwë Súlimo]

Isn't Gary DeMar the one that dangerously courts hyperpreterists and refuses to come out explicitly against them?

[alaskazimm]

Yes, but I believe that the book came out before he began courting. What I can remember of the book is solidly in the orthodox preterist camp.

[Rayado]

Let me make sure I'm understanding you. You're giving me the impression that the earth will persist in pain, death, and destruction for all eternity. What do you think the kingdom of God is?

I have a purple cow on the line that would like to have a word with you.

[theblueprint_Ni]

I have a purple cow on the line that would like to have a word with you.

Feel free to comment in my thread in the Eschatology forum "Preterism - what's your take?"

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Blueprint. You said in that other thread that you have a hard time believing Christ is reigning now since there's so much sin and death in the world.

Would you have a hard time believing YHWH is Lord of Heaven and Earth in the OT with so much sin in the world? A lot of people do. They're called atheists and use this as the Problem of Evil.

Would you care to read Psalm 110 again and read it very slowly and carefully?

[theblueprint_Ni]

God's sovereign lordship is different than Christ's reigning kingdom, viz., Is. 11, etc. I have a hard time believing it based on what I read in Scripture about the Kingdom of peace and righteousness on earth that clearly has yet to be established.

[Manwë Súlimo]

All a kingdom needs is a king and something to rule. Christ is the head of the church - a la, Christ is reigning in His kingdom.

[RBerman]

God's sovereign lordship is different than Christ's reigning kingdom, viz., Is. 11, etc. I have a hard time believing it based on what I read in Scripture about the Kingdom of peace and righteousness on earth that clearly has yet to be established.

The kingdom has been inaugurated but has not yet come in its fullness, because that would entail the final judgment on evil men, and God is patiently holding off on that for now. And yet, as Manwe said, Jesus is our Lord and King even now, and we are subjects in his kingdom.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

God's sovereign lordship is different than Christ's reigning kingdom, viz., Is. 11, etc. I have a hard time believing it based on what I read in Scripture about the Kingdom of peace and righteousness on earth that clearly has yet to be established.

Hmmmm. So for YHWH to reign, there can be sin and death. For Christ to reign, there cannot be. Are you saying the ruling of the Son is to be superior then to that of the Father? Upon what grounds?

Also, you've given a great reason to the Jewish unbelievers now for thinking the Messiah has not come. After all, don't prophecies like Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11 tell us that there will be world peace when the Messiah comes?

Have you ever considered that the problem could be your literalist hermeneutic? Tell me, do you think Ezekiel 37-40 are literal?

Also keep in mind, I have nothing against futurists. I love them dearly. After all, I'm married to one.

[theblueprint_Ni]

Hmmmm. So for YHWH to reign, there can be sin and death. For Christ to reign, there cannot be. Are you saying the ruling of the Son is to be superior then to that of the Father? Upon what grounds?
Was the Holy Spirit active on earth in the OT and in the life of OT believers? Indeed He was, but the Bible tells us that He didn't come until Pentecost when the Son sent Him. What do you make of that?

It's the same thing. The Holy Spirit was present and active since He brooded over the waters of Genesis 1, but He didn't assert a stronger, more evident role until Christ ascended. Likewise, God has always been sovereign, so to answer your question, how God rules the earth through the kingship of Jesus Christ has only been fulfilled in individual believers, but the Bible prophecies of a real, earthly kingship whereby He judges and rules the nations. It would be redundant to quote some of them again.

Also, you've given a great reason to the Jewish unbelievers now for thinking the Messiah has not come. After all, don't prophecies like Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11 tell us that there will be world peace when the Messiah comes?

Not really. It's clear that they misunderstood the Messianic mission, and there's hardly an excuse for their rejection. It's more of a problem for you than it is for me because the answer is simple: The Bible prophecies of two comings of Christ, the first was a mission of mercy, and the second is a mission of judgment. That's the only explanation for the contrasting a prophesied suffering/reigning Messiah. The prophecies that predicted His birth and suffering were fulfilled literally, so there is no valid basis for interpreting the prophecies predicting his rule and reign symbolically.

Have you ever considered that the problem could be your literalist hermeneutic? Tell me, do you think Ezekiel 37-40 are literal?

We always have to make a judgment call about whether or not a prophecy is literal. We have to discern the indicators, but of course we can still be wrong.

Also keep in mind, I have nothing against futurists. I love them dearly. After all, I'm married to one.

Likewise, except my wife isn't a Preterist, but I have friends who are.

Was the Holy Spirit active on earth in the OT and in the life of OT believers?

Above...

[ApologiaPhoenix]

[QUOTE=theblueprint_Ni;3291901]It's the same thing. The Holy Spirit was present and active since He brooded over the waters of Genesis 1, but He didn't assert a stronger, more evident role until Christ ascended. Likewise, God has always been sovereign, so to answer your question, how God rules the earth through the kingship of Jesus Christ has only been fulfilled in individual believers, but the Bible prophecies of a real, earthly kingship whereby He judges and rules the nations. It would be redundant to quote some of them again. /QUOTE]

I have no idea what you're responding to here since you've got some statements in here that I never said. I never mentioned anything about the Holy Spirit.

You say the Bible prophecies of a real earthly kingdom. I say you're reading that in a literalist mode and in doing so, giving atheists and Jews a way out.

Not really. It's clear that they misunderstood the Messianic mission, and there's hardly an excuse for their rejection. It's more of a problem for you than it is for me because the answer is simple: The Bible prophecies of two comings of Christ, the first was a mission of mercy, and the second is a mission of judgment. That's the only explanation for the contrasting a prophesied suffering/reigning Messiah. The prophecies that predicted His birth and suffering were fulfilled literally, so there is no valid basis for interpreting the prophecies predicting his rule and reign symbolically.

There are few prophecies about his birth that I can think of. The only ones I know of state that he would be born of a virgin and born in Bethlehem. Neither one of those use poetic language in that sense, but even the Micah 2 prophecy does as it talks about one who's going forths have been from eternity. It's a very poetic passage. I also consider Isaiah 7 to be a use of pesher having a fulfillment at the time and a fulfillment in Christ.

The reason for taking his rule and reign of judgment symbolically is that this is the way apocalyptic literature was written.

We always have to make a judgment call about whether or not a prophecy is literal. We have to discern the indicators, but of course we can still be wrong.

We do, but I ask you what your opinion was.

Above...

Something I never said so I have no idea where you got it.

[theblueprint_Ni]

Sorry, I was in a rush so I messed things up. Here's what it was supposed to look like:

Was the Holy Spirit active on earth in the OT and in the life of OT believers? Yes, but the Bible teaches that He didn't come until that fateful day on Pentecost. It's the same thing [this was a response to this quote: Are you saying the ruling of the Son is to be superior then to that of the Father? Upon what grounds?]. The Holy Spirit was present and active since He brooded over the waters of Genesis 1, but He didn't assert a stronger, more evident role until Christ ascended. Likewise, God has always been sovereign, so to answer your question, how God rules the earth through the kingship of Jesus Christ has only been fulfilled in individual believers, but the Bible prophesies of a real, earthly kingship whereby He judges and rules the nations.

I somehow managed to move my first sentence onto the bottom and thought it was your quote by the time I got to it. Don't ask how that happened...

There are few prophecies about his birth that I can think of. The only ones I know of state that he would be born of a virgin and born in Bethlehem. Neither one of those use poetic language in that sense, but even the Micah 2 prophecy does as it talks about one who's going forths have been from eternity. It's a very poetic passage. I also consider Isaiah 7 to be a use of pesher having a fulfillment at the time and a fulfillment in Christ.

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

This was fulfilled literally.

Micah 4:1-8

1 And it will come about in the (A)last days
That the (B)mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the (C)peoples will stream to it.
2 (D)Many nations will come and say,
“(E)Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That (F)He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For (G)from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And He will (H)judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, [b]distant nations.
Then they will hammer their swords (I)into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they [c]train for war.
4 Each of them will (J)sit under his vine
And under his fig tree,
With (K)no one to make them afraid,
For the (L)mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
5 Though all the peoples walk
Each in the (M)name of his god,
As for us, (N)we will walk
In the name of the (O)LORD our God forever and ever.
6 “In that day,” declares the LORD,
“I will assemble the (P)lame
And (Q)gather the outcasts,
Even those whom I have afflicted.
7 “I will make the lame a (R)remnant
And the outcasts a strong nation,
And the (S)LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on and forever.
8 “As for you, [d](T)tower of the flock,
[e]Hill of the daughter of Zion,
To you it will come—
Even the (U)former dominion will come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem..

But this is fulfilled symbolically? I can't see the justification for it. They read exactly the same, not to mention Isaiah 11.

It just seems that the default position of a Preterist is to interpret prophecy symbolically. You'll admit literal fulfillment only when it has already come to pass, but not without. The book of Revelation is a mind trip no matter how you slice it up to fit in with the events of nearly 2000 years ago. The book is bent and twisted in the same way I cringe to watch a Circe du Soleil contortionist. I'm not implying this in the heretical sense (I have no reason to malign you), only in the sense in witch it looks unnatural.

When you see a prophecy like the one I mentioned, you think something like, "Well the OT has been fulfilled in the NT, and that prophecy obviously hasn't been fulfilled literally, so it must have been fulfilled symbolically." Correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't think that way. I think, "This prophecy obviously hasn't been fulfilled literally, so it must not have been fulfilled yet." The difference between us is in our overall theology, not just eschatology. I'm convinced that (1) Neither the OT nor the NT has implied that God has wiped his hands finished with Israel, and (2) that the Messianic prophecies concerning His suffering and mission to die for the sins of the world have been fulfilled literally, and so those prophecies concerning his power and monarchy should also be fulfilled literally because they are prophesied in the same manner. It only makes sense to me that when Jesus spoke about returning, he strongly indicated a real, physical return, which the angel in Acts 1:11 corroborates and perfectly ties in to what the OT was talking about and how He can appear with the mission to reign as king. It also vindicates the position that what the Jews expected would actually come to pass, but they erroneously overlooked the first half of prophecy that spoke of His suffering because they were only interested in a political Messiah, not true repentance and forgiveness of sins (Rom 9:31).

I would not agree that my position gives Israel (or atheists) an excuse for their situation because they missed Him the first time around. They crucified their king, so ya, they really messed up and they won't see him again for a long time. God's blessing of Israel was also contingent upon their behavior and spiritual condition, but His covenant with them is not. The "missing kingdom" isn't a problem when you reconcile Messianic prophecy as a two part series, which in my view is the most reasonable conclusion to draw considering the contrasting character portraits in the OT of who the Messiah is.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Sorry, I was in a rush so I messed things up. Here's what it was supposed to look like:

Was the Holy Spirit active on earth in the OT and in the life of OT believers? Yes, but the Bible teaches that He didn't come until that fateful day on Pentecost. It's the same thing [this was a response to this quote: Are you saying the ruling of the Son is to be superior then to that of the Father? Upon what grounds?]. The Holy Spirit was present and active since He brooded over the waters of Genesis 1, but He didn't assert a stronger, more evident role until Christ ascended. Likewise, God has always been sovereign, so to answer your question, how God rules the earth through the kingship of Jesus Christ has only been fulfilled in individual believers, but the Bible prophesies of a real, earthly kingship whereby He judges and rules the nations.

It does? Do you deny that Christ is on David's throne right now? If so, why would Christ need to abandon a heavenly throne for an earthly one?

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

[QUOTE] This was fulfilled literally. /QUOTE]

Not entirely. For instance, if you asked someone about their seed in the biblical times, it meant their physical descendants. Also, some have said Jesus was not silent before his accusers. He spoe.

Micah 4:1-8

1 And it will come about in the (A)last days
That the (B)mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the (C)peoples will stream to it.
2 (D)Many nations will come and say,
“(E)Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That (F)He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For (G)from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And He will (H)judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, [b]distant nations.
Then they will hammer their swords (I)into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they [c]train for war.
4 Each of them will (J)sit under his vine
And under his fig tree,
With (K)no one to make them afraid,
For the (L)mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
5 Though all the peoples walk
Each in the (M)name of his god,
As for us, (N)we will walk
In the name of the (O)LORD our God forever and ever.
6 “In that day,” declares the LORD,
“I will assemble the (P)lame
And (Q)gather the outcasts,
Even those whom I have afflicted.
7 “I will make the lame a (R)remnant
And the outcasts a strong nation,
And the (S)LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on and forever.
8 “As for you, [d](T)tower of the flock,
[e]Hill of the daughter of Zion,
To you it will come—
Even the (U)former dominion will come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem..

But this is fulfilled symbolically? I can't see the justification for it. They read exactly the same, not to mention Isaiah 11. /QUOTE]

Because this is a passage about judgment and future blessing. You can point to several passages that are past and have not been fulfilled literally. Have you seen DeeDeeWarren's commentary on Matthew 24? She could show you that.

It just seems that the default position of a Preterist is to interpret prophecy symbolically. /QUOTE]

No.

You'll admit literal fulfillment only when it has already come to pass, but not without.

We also admit symbolic fulfillment when it has come to pass.

The book of Revelation is a mind trip no matter how you slice it up to fit in with the events of nearly 2000 years ago. The book is bent and twisted in the same way I cringe to watch a Circe du Soleil contortionist. I'm not implying this in the heretical sense (I have no reason to malign you), only in the sense in witch it looks unnatural.

To say it's bent and twisted implies that it was meant to be taken literally. Do you really think satan is a dragon with that many heads? Do you think he can literally be bound with a chain? Do you think Jesus literally will have a sword coming out of his mouth? Note that Revelation 12 even describes the birth of Jesus. Do you think that's how it literally happened?

QUOTE] When you see a prophecy like the one I mentioned, you think something like, "Well the OT has been fulfilled in the NT, and that prophecy obviously hasn't been fulfilled literally, so it must have been fulfilled symbolically." Correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't think that way.

No. I base it also on how prophecies that we know to be fulfilled and they have not been so literally. In fact, it's not a prophecy, but I urge you to read king David's message at the end of 2 Samuel where he talks about how the Lord came down and shot arrows at David's enemies. David speaks that as a historic event. Could you tell me where David hitched up on Gabriel and came riding down?

I think, "This prophecy obviously hasn't been fulfilled literally, so it must not have been fulfilled yet." The difference between us is in our overall theology, not just eschatology.

Past judgments have already taken place on nations that no longer exist. If they were to be fulfilled literally, then it had to happen to those nations. If they were not fulfilled, then they were false prophecies.

QUOTE] I'm convinced that (1) Neither the OT nor the NT has implied that God has wiped his hands finished with Israel,

Finished with Israel for what purpose? I do not see the church as Plan B. Especially since Paul doesn't seem to in Romans 9-11. We are the Israel of God. All who are in covenant with YHWH are true Israel. There is nothing special about being of Jewish descent. Do you really think the nation of Israel today has anything whatsoever to do with YHWH?

and (2) that the Messianic prophecies concerning His suffering and mission to die for the sins of the world have been fulfilled literally,

Correct.

and so those prophecies concerning his power and monarchy should also be fulfilled literally because they are prophesied in the same manner.

Not correct. Judgment language is not the same.

[QUOTE]It only makes sense to me that when Jesus spoke about returning, he strongly indicated a real, physical return, which the angel in Acts 1:11 corroborates and perfectly ties in to what the OT was talking about and how He can appear with the mission to reign as king. /QUOTE]

You do know that Preterism teaches a physical return of Christ someday also don't you?

Also, you can sit and wait all you want for Jesus to reign as king. I'll say He did all He needs to to reign right now. If you are interested in taking Scriptures literally, let's see one passage that speaks about Christ's rulership. Psalm 110. What does it say?

It also vindicates the position that what the Jews expected would actually come to pass, but they erroneously overlooked the first half of prophecy that spoke of His suffering because they were only interested in a political Messiah, not true repentance and forgiveness of sins (Rom 9:31).

Perhaps because in many ways they were interpreting them in a more literal fashion.

I would not agree that my position gives Israel (or atheists) an excuse for their situation because they missed Him the first time around.

Fine. Then I'll be pleased to see you go to the Judaism section and ask them why they don't believe Jesus is Messiah or answer atheists on how Jesus was wrong on Matthew 24:34

[QUOTE] They crucified their king, so ya, they really messed up and they won't see him again for a long time. God's blessing of Israel was also contingent upon their behavior and spiritual condition, but His covenant with them is not. /QUOTE]

It never has been. God's covenant is still going on and it has not ended. Hebrews 8 tells us it's going on today with true Israel.

The "missing kingdom" isn't a problem when you reconcile Messianic prophecy as a two part series, which in my view is the most reasonable conclusion to draw considering the contrasting character portraits in the OT of who the Messiah is.

Or you could take the Preterist view. He suffered as a servant and now he reigns as a king who will one day return.

[Teluog]

Awesome Things To Do If You Have Mutant Powers: Mess with Dispensationalists:

[theblueprint_Ni]

At this point, I think we've squeezed everything out that has made this exchange productive. It would be laborious to go any deeper into the theological roots of our positions. Perhaps we can pick it up again sometime in the future. I have appreciated the dialogue.