Coming on the clouds of the sky...

[Blue Canary]

Has the Son of Man already been seen coming on the clouds of the sky while all the nations in his generation mourned Him?

[PsychGuy]

Has the Son of Man already been seen coming on the clouds of the sky while all the nations in his generation mourned Him?

Absolutely not. That's a description of the Second Coming.

[Cow Poke]

Has the Son of Man already been seen coming on the clouds of the sky while all the nations in his generation mourned Him?

Are you thinking He has?

[Blue Canary]

Are you thinking He has?

Wow, cute avatar.

I'm trying to understand how such an event could happen in "this generation". There are two sides that seem to crush us. One side is the common sense interpretation of "this generation" and the other side is that the Son of Man coming in the clouds for all nations to mourn implies a visibility that did not historically take place in that generation. I don't understand it.

[Little Shepherd]

Has the Son of Man already been seen coming on the clouds of the sky while all the nations in his generation mourned Him?

Yes. The destruction of the Temple and general ransacking of Jerusalem are more than sufficient to reasonably believe that Jesus cast judgment against Israel(came on the clouds, a reference to judgment taken straight from the Old Testament).

the other side is that the Son of Man coming in the clouds for all nations to mourn implies a visibility that did not historically take place in that generation.

This is what is commonly known as the "purple cow" fallacy. It's essentially begging the question on how the passage must be interpreted, and then claiming that since its prophecy wasn't fulfilled in a specific way(without showing first that the passage must be taken in such a way) it wasn't fulfilled at all. This parable from which the term originates explains it quite well.

[Blue Canary]

I've avoided making a decision on this whole thing, I don't know the arguments. I didn't know that there is an argument that says that coming in the clouds means only judgement. That would make it easier. But, was the coming in the clouds not suppose to be for all nations to see and mourn? I don't understand this.

[xcav8tor]

I've avoided making a decision on this whole thing, I don't know the arguments. I didn't know that there is an argument that says that coming in the clouds means only judgement. That would make it easier. But, was the coming in the clouds not suppose to be for all nations to see and mourn? I don't understand this.

Hi Blue Canary,

Acts chapter one tells us that Jesus was taken into the sky and disappeared into the clouds. The angels said Jesus would return the same way He left. He certainly didn't leave "in judgment."

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9 After he [Jesus] said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the SKY as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? THIS SAME JESUS, who has been taken from you into heaven, WILL COME BACK IN THE SAME WAY you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:8-11 NIV)

Compare this to Matt 24:

29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING on the CLOUDS OF THE SKY, with power and great glory.

And Rev. 1:

5 and from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. 7 Look, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

No mention of judgment in these passages... just clouds.

Now look at Rev 19, where Jesus is clearly described as coming IN JUDGMENT:

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. WITH JUSTICE HE JUDGES AND MAKES WAR. 12 HIS EYES ARE LIKE BLAZING FIRE, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS THE WORD OF GOD. 14 THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN WERE FOLLOWING HIM, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." HE TREADS THE WINEPRESS OF THE FURY OF THE WRATH OF GOD ALMIGHTLY. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 THE REST OF THEM WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD THAT CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE RIDER ON THE HORSE, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Hmmm. No CLOUDS "of judgment" specifically mentioned at all. Go figure.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[Little Shepherd]

Acts chapter one tells us that Jesus was taken into the sky and disappeared into the clouds. The angels said Jesus would return the same way He left. He certainly didn't leave "in judgment."

Acts chapter 1 is also not making use of a figure of speech. It's a straight-forward telling in which the clouds are just clouds that happen to be present.

Compare this to Matt 24:

29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING on the CLOUDS OF THE SKY, with power and great glory.

Yes, do compare them. And read the entire chapters, not just a few cherry-picked verses. The contexts are entirely different. Acts 1 isn't about judgment at all; it's about Jesus' physical departure. Matthew 24 is clearly about a coming judgment, what with Jesus mentioning the coming destruction of the Temple and all. It would have made no sense to use an expression referencing judgment in Acts 1, but in Matthew 24 it's entirely fitting the overall theme of the chapter.

And Rev. 1:

5 and from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. 7 Look, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

No mention of judgment in these passages... just clouds.

You're simply begging the question that the phrase "coming with the clouds" isn't a reference to judgment in the first place. Given the rest of the events of Revelation, basically a telling of judgment to happen using apocalyptic language, it's certainly in keeping with the overall theme of the book.

Now look at Rev 19, where Jesus is clearly described as coming IN JUDGMENT:

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. WITH JUSTICE HE JUDGES AND MAKES WAR. 12 HIS EYES ARE LIKE BLAZING FIRE, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and HIS NAME IS THE WORD OF GOD. 14 THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN WERE FOLLOWING HIM, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." HE TREADS THE WINEPRESS OF THE FURY OF THE WRATH OF GOD ALMIGHTLY. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 THE REST OF THEM WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD THAT CAME OUT OF THE MOUTH OF THE RIDER ON THE HORSE, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Hmmm. No CLOUDS "of judgment" specifically mentioned at all. Go figure.

That's a pretty simple fallacy to point out. Just because "coming on the clouds" can be(and sometimes is) used as a statement of judgment doesn't mean that it's the only phrase thus used. It's not reasonable to expect it to be used in every instance judgment is being discussed, so its absence in this one passage illustrates nothing important.

[Jin-Roh]

I've avoided making a decision on this whole thing, I don't know the arguments. I didn't know that there is an argument that says that coming in the clouds means only judgement. That would make it easier. But, was the coming in the clouds not suppose to be for all nations to see and mourn? I don't understand this.

Coming on the clouds is an idiom. It is like saying, "Obama's star is fading." Am I talking about a visible star? A star that is own by Obama? No. We mean that his popularity is diminishing.

Coming on the clouds, as I take it, was a way of saying "you will be judged by the person 'coming on the clouds.'" no need for Jesus to streak across the sky like Apollo.

Besides, how could "all nations" see Jesus up in the sky like The clouds are rather up high and the earth is spherical. So while England might be able to have a nice clear view of Jesus (and they'd probably still need telescopes) I don't think Korea or Argentina would be able to see him.

[seanD]

Besides, how could "all nations" see Jesus up in the sky like The clouds are rather up high and the earth is spherical. So while England might be able to have a nice clear view of Jesus (and they'd probably still need telescopes) I don't think Korea or Argentina would be able to see him.

One might presume that everyone is gathered together in the air to meet the Lord as he returns to earth. This would be the ideal way to gather the world to a location for judgment (after all we wouldn't think that those on the other side of the world would bore through the earth to get to the other side). So in the process of being gathered, they will see him as he's returning.

[Jin-Roh]

One might presume that everyone is gathered together in the air to meet the Lord as he returns to earth. This would be the ideal way to gather the world to a location for judgment (after all we wouldn't think that those on the other side of the world would bore through the earth to get to the other side). So in the process of being gathered, they will see him as he's returning.

Yes, seanD, one might presume...

I prefer to identify (and then understand) idioms according to how idioms were used by the speaker and the colloquialisms of the context. It is like when a French woman tells me "I'm full" I figure she probably means "I'm pregnant" not "I have had enough to eat." Or if a kid in south central tells me to "shake the spot" he means, "go away" not "please draw a dot on a piece of paper, and then shake it." You might hear a Korean speaker refer to elderly gentleman as "grandfather," yet I understand that as a term of respect and the elderly gentleman is probably not literally the speaker's parent's parent.

Somehow, that just makes more sense the presuming that every last human being on earth to be gathered in a space small enough that they could all see a human-sized object up in the sky. Or maybe we could presume that they also have their own private telescopes, or cameras, or that Jesus gets really big -kinda like ultraman.

[seanD]

I wasn't necessarily arguing for the right interpretation, that's a whole separate issue between futurist and preterist. I was refuting the specific logic you used to refute it. And the logic you used was that not everyone around the world could possibly see this event all at once, which is true. However, if Jesus gathers everyone to a location for judgment as he's returning, as Matthew 24:31 clearly indicates, then the logic you previously used isn't applicable. Arguing whether they could technically see him even in one location as opposed to seeing him in all places of the world, which is what you stated before, is just sort of moving the goalpost.

[Blue Canary]

Thanks for the comments, etc.

In what way did "all the nations of the earth" witness and mourn Jesus' "coming on the clouds"? Did the collection of the elect happen at their deaths? Still searching...

[Little Shepherd]

In what way did "all the nations of the earth" witness and mourn Jesus' "coming on the clouds"? Did the collection of the elect happen at their deaths? Still searching...

Hearkening back to post #5, The Purple Cow Parable explains it quite well. It's your basic old-fashioned hyperbole.

[eschaton]

A couple of observations here.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Isa_60:8; Eze_38:9, Eze_38:16

I don't know what difference it makes if Jesus brings rain with Him or not. I think it is more likely that these things are figurative.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This verse has been pointed out. If you look now you can see Him. That's why it says behold. The things in Revelation are seen with spiritual eyes, as in the message to the churches.