Preterism - What's your take?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Don't you have to have proof that someone lied when making accusations? Oh that's right your the site owner. How pathetic!



I have read your post for a couple of years now and you are constantly rude to fellow Christians. Honestly I've never seen Christians so rude as I have at TWEB. It it has had a negative impact on my behavior and now that I'm getting the rudeness from the site owner I think it's time for me to end my time at TWEB. You and others can learn from the likes of Adrift and RBerman.

Constantly eh? What would that be in terms of percentage? I ask because I think you are lying again. You tend to spout before thinking. You might want to keep the virtual piehole shut until you have those pesky things called facts.

Oh and yeah, why did you lie about Google again?

[Chaotic Void]

Constantly eh? What would that be in terms of percentage? I ask because I think you are lying again. You tend to spout before thinking. You might want to keep the virtual piehole shut until you have those pesky things called facts.

Oh and yeah, why did you lie about Google again?

To be fair, if you type in "Zechariah 12-14 Preterism" none of the articles from your site come up until the third page (though if you make it "Zechariah 12-14 Orthodox Preterism" one article comes up in the first page). However, that makes me wonder how many pages in he looks when he Google Searches.

It also doesn't excuse his current and previous conduct (ie, calling people who disagree with him "Lying", "Dumbass", "Retard" or any combination of the aforementioned).

[Pilgrim]

Yeah, I noticed he avoided that as well. Went straight to the attack hoping we'd miss it.

[Dee Dee Warren]

To be fair, if you type in "Zechariah 12-14 Preterism" none of the articles from your site come up until the third page (though if you make it "Zechariah 12-14 Orthodox Preterism" one article comes up in the first page). However, that makes me wonder how many pages in he looks when he Google Searches.

It also doesn't excuse his current and previous conduct (ie, calling people who disagree with him "Lying", "Dumbass", "Retard" or any combination of the aforementioned).

Wording a search that way would be the most ineffecient way for someone really looking for an answer as the wording is ackward. Nonetheless, even that search turns up answers on the very first page. His claim wasn't restricted to my site, I simply noted that a decently worded search turned up articles that I knew were good, but his requirement had nothing to do with my site at all or even orthodox responses. Heretics can answer that passage at times very well since it doesn't overtly deal with the resurrection which is where hypers go off the rails. He didn't restrict his lying claim at all..

And I just repeated your search, and sorry, my site does come up on the first page.

As does a TWeb thread on the topic!

So perhaps he wants to explain why he lied.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Yeah, I noticed he avoided that as well. Went straight to the attack hoping we'd miss it.

He apparently underrated this retarded Calvinist's OCD quotient.

[Chaotic Void]

Wording a search that way would be the most ineffecient way for someone really looking for an answer as the wording is ackward. Nonetheless, even that search turns up answers on the very first page. His claim wasn't restricted to my site, I simply noted that a decently worded search turned up articles that I knew were good, but his requirement had nothing to do with my site at all or even orthodox responses. Heretics can answer that passage at times very well since it doesn't overtly deal with the resurrection which is where hypers go off the rails. He didn't restrict his lying claim at all..

And I just repeated your search, and sorry, my site does come up on the first page.

As does a TWeb thread on the topic!

So perhaps he wants to explain why he lied.

I must have missed that one. Correction taken.

Even if I was right, that guy still has a lot of explaining to do...

[princesa]

maybe we can let it drop, we've all lied one time or another and have been crabby one time or another, I actually do find the adrift and rberman examples to be good as i've always admired both of them for their tact etc...yes i'm a crab many times, the more hurt i was the crabbier i became but must we do the gang bang thing?....it hurts the viewers, and yes, i know i don't have to watch but it's like being in a highway and seeing a car accident, well now, no more rubber necking for me. i'm just passing through. I've lied in the past and will probably tell some lies in the future. I'll try not to but sometimes i just don't give a crap. I'm hardly the finest Christian example but who is.

[theblueprint_Ni]

That's not a bad piece of advice. I'd hate to see the thread degenerate any further, it's just not worth it.

[Dee Dee Warren]

maybe we can let it drop, we've all lied one time or another and have been crabby one time or another, I actually do find the adrift and rberman examples to be good as i've always admired both of them for their tact etc...yes i'm a crab many times, the more hurt i was the crabbier i became but must we do the gang bang thing?....it hurts the viewers, and yes, i know i don't have to watch but it's like being in a highway and seeing a car accident, well now, no more rubber necking for me. i'm just passing through. I've lied in the past and will probably tell some lies in the future. I'll try not to but sometimes i just don't give a crap. I'm hardly the finest Christian example but who is.

If he would admit he lied.

[xcav8tor]

[to dizzle] I can see why you're divorced. Peace out.

wonbyone, That was a really cheap, personal shot and totally uncalled for.
You owe dizzle a public apology. I would suggest that you do so before you exit Tweb.

xcav8tor

[shadowmaster]

The Christians on theology web do not speak like nice people.

[Littlejoe]

That's not a bad piece of advice. I'd hate to see the thread degenerate any further, it's just not worth it.

It seems to me thta theblueprint_Ni has requested that the thread not continue to stray off topic and further degenerate. Please return to discussing the OP.

Not an official "Mod" notice, simply a friendly reminder what we are here for

Thanks,
LJ

p.s Blue, I wil have to look further into Zech 12-14, I can tell you as a former Pre-Trib Disp. Futurist I have found Orthodox Preterism as consistent as any system...and in many ways more so.

[theblueprint_Ni]

It seems to me thta theblueprint_Ni has requested that the thread not continue to stray off topic and further degenerate. Please return to discussing the OP.

I don't want to see the brethren badger, malign, and insult one another. We have a tendency to be a bit more unrestrained because of the internet medium replacing the buffer of social civility in face to face communication, but God doesn't see our hearts any differently because of that. I'd like us all to treat one another as if we were sitting next to each other on a pew or in the classroom. I too must constantly watch myself in this.

p.s Blue, I wil have to look further into Zech 12-14, I can tell you as a former Pre-Trib Disp. Futurist I have found Orthodox Preterism as consistent as any system...and in many ways more so.

I don't disagree that Preterism is a natural (coherent logical extension) eschatological position within a greater, consistent theology; I just don't agree with it; like Calvinism. One's eschatology should be a natural extension of one's theology. The problem is that many people have compartmentalized beliefs that don't cohere to a greater theological system, which I think is more typical of those in the Dispensational camp because of its sensational appeal to the theologically unlearned masses.

[eschaton]

My problem with both preterism and futurism is that they don't pay enough attention to what the apostles taught the early church. The only reference to church fathers that I saw in this thread was to Hippolytus, and it was said that he is wrong. Of course he was wrong because he wasn't a preterist. It seems the scriptures didn't have meaning until preterists came along to declare what they mean. Just kidding.

I would like to offer explanations of the scriptures mentioned in post #11 in hopes of clearing some things up.

Isaiah 11:1
And what is spoken of as “the blood of the grape,” signifies that He who should appear would have blood, though not of the seed of man, but of the power of God. And the first power after God the Father and Lord of all is the Word, who is also the Son; and of Him we will, in what follows, relate how He took flesh and became man. For as man did not make the blood of the vine, but God, so it was hereby intimated that the blood should not be of human seed, but of divine power, as we have said above. And Isaiah, another prophet, foretelling the same things in other words, spoke thus: “A star shall rise out of Jacob, and a flower shall spring from the root of Jesse; and His arm shall the nations trust. [Isa. xi. 1.]
Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter XXXII.—Christ predicted by Moses.

For Christ did not at that time descend upon Jesus, neither was Christ one and Jesus another: but the Word of God—who is the Saviour of all, and the ruler of heaven and earth, who is Jesus, as I have already pointed out, who did also take upon Him flesh, and was anointed by the Spirit from the Father—was made Jesus Christ, as Esaias also says, “There shall come forth a rod from the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise from his root; and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and piety, and the spirit of the fear of God, shall fill Him. He shall not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech; but He shall dispense judgment to the humble man, and reprove the haughty ones of the earth.”[Isa 11:1]
Irenaeus, Book III, Chapter IX.—One and the same God, the Creator of heaven and earth, is He whom the prophets foretold, and who was declared by the Gospel. Proof of this, at the outset, from St. Matthew’s Gospel.

Hereupon Trypho, after I had spoken these words, said, “Do not now suppose that I am endeavouring, by asking what I do ask, to overturn the statements you have made; but I wish to receive information respecting those very points about which I now inquire. Tell me, then, how, when the Scripture asserts by Isaiah, ‘There shall come forth a rod from the root of Jesse; and a flower shall grow up from the root of Jesse; and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and piety: and the spirit of the fear of the Lord shall fill Him:’[Isa. xi. 1 ]
Chapter LXXXVII.—Trypho maintains in objection these words: “And shall rest on Him,” etc. They are explained by Justin.

Isaiah 11:2

1. It certainly was in the power of the apostles to declare that Christ descended upon Jesus, or that the so-called superior Saviour [came down] upon the dispensational one, or he who is from the invisible places upon him from the Demiurge; but they neither knew nor said anything of the kind: for, had they known it, they would have also certainly stated it. But what really was the case, that did they record, [namely,] that the Spirit of God as a dove descended upon Him; this Spirit, of whom it was declared by Isaiah, “And the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him,” [Isa. xi. 2.]
Irenaeus, Book III, Chapter XVII.—The apostles teach that it was neither Christ nor the Saviour, but the Holy Spirit, who did descend upon Jesus. The reason for this descent.

3. Gideon, [Judg. vi. 37, etc.] that Israelite whom God chose, that he might save the people of Israel from the power of foreigners, foreseeing this gracious gift, changed his request, and prophesied that there would be dryness upon the fleece of wool (a type of the people), on which alone at first there had been dew; thus indicating that they should no longer have the Holy Spirit from God, as saith Esaias, “I will also command the clouds, that they rain no rain upon it,”[ Isa. v. 6. ] but that the dew, which is the Spirit of God, who descended upon the Lord, should be diffused throughout all the earth, “the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and piety, the spirit of the fear of God.” [ Isa. xi. 2.]
Irenaeus, Book III, Chapter XVII.—The apostles teach that it was neither Christ nor the Saviour, but the Holy Spirit, who did descend upon Jesus. The reason for this descent.

Isaiah 11:4

1. A spiritual disciple of this sort truly receiving the Spirit of God, who was from the beginning, in all the dispensations of God, present with mankind, and announced things future, revealed things present, and narrated things past—[such a man] does indeed “judge all men, but is himself judged by no man.” [ 1 Cor. ii. 15.] [The argument of this chapter hinges on Ps. xxv. 14, and expounds a difficult text of St. Paul. A man who has the mind of God’s Spirit is the only judge of spiritual things. Worldly men are incompetent critics of Scripture and of Christian exposition. For he judges the Gentiles, “who serve the creature more than the Creator,” [ Rom. i. 21.] and with a reprobate mind spend all their labour on vanity. And he also judges the Jews, who do not accept of the word of liberty, nor are willing to go forth free, although they have a Deliverer present [with them]; but they pretend, at a time unsuitable [for such conduct], to serve, [with observances] beyond [those required by] the law, God who stands in need of nothing, and do not recognise the advent of Christ, which He accomplished for the salvation of men, nor are willing to understand that all the prophets announced His two advents: the one, indeed, in which He became a man subject to stripes, and knowing what it is to bear infirmity, [Isa. liii. 3.] and sat upon the foal of an ass, [ Zech. ix. 9. ] and was a stone rejected by the builders, [ Ps. cxviii. 22.] and was led as a sheep to the slaughter, [ Isa. liii. 7.] and by the stretching forth of His hands destroyed Amalek; [ Ex. xvii. 11.] while He gathered from the ends of the earth into His Father’s fold the children who were scattered abroad, [ Isa. xi. 12.] and remembered His own dead ones who had formerly fallen asleep, and came down to them that He might deliver them: but the second in which He will come on the clouds, [ Dan. vii. 13.] bringing on the day which burns as a furnace, [ Mal. iv. 1.] and smiting the earth with the word of His mouth, [ Isa. xi. 4.] and slaying the impious with the breath of His lips, and having a fan in His hands, and cleansing His floor, and gathering the wheat indeed into His barn, but burning the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Irenaeus, Book IV, Chapter XXXIII.—Whosoever confesses that one God is the author of both Testaments, and diligently reads the Scriptures in company with the presbyters of the Church, is a true spiritual disciple; and he will rightly understand and interpret all that the prophets have declared respecting Christ and the liberty of the New Testament.

Isaiah 11:6

As the elders who saw John the disciple of the Lord remembered that they had heard from him how the Lord taught in regard to those times, and said]: “The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and on every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes, and every grape when pressed will give five-and-twenty metretes of wine. And when any one of the saints shall lay hold of a cluster, another shall cry out, ‘I am a better cluster, take me; bless the Lord through me.’ In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man.”
Papias Fragment IV.
[Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him. And he added, saying, “Now these things are credible to believers. And Judas the traitor,” says he, “not believing, and asking, ‘How shall such growths be accomplished by the Lord?’ the Lord said, ‘They shall see who shall come to them.’ These, then, are the times mentioned by the prophet Isaiah: ‘And the wolf shall lie down with the lamb,’ etc. (Isa. xi. 6 ff.).”]




Micah 4:1
“But that the Gentiles would repent of the evil in which they led erring lives, when they heard the doctrine preached by His apostles from Jerusalem, and which they learned through them, suffer me to show you by quoting a short statement from the prophecy of Micah, one of the twelve [minor prophets]. This is as follows: ‘And in the last days the mountain of the Lord shall be manifest, established on the top of the mountains; it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and they shall enlighten us in His way, and we shall walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among many peoples, and shall rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into sickles: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. And each man shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree; and there shall be none to terrify: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk in the name of their gods; but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will assemble her that is afflicted, and gather her that is driven out, and whom I had plagued; and I shall make her that is afflicted a remnant, and her that is oppressed a strong nation. And the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from henceforth, and even for ever.’ ”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter CIX.—The conversion of the Gentiles has been predicted by Micah

Micah 4:2-3
4. If any one, however, advocating the cause of the Jews, do maintain that this new covenant consisted in the rearing of that temple which was built under Zerubbabel after the emigration to Babylon, and in the departure of the people from thence after the lapse of seventy years, let him know that the temple constructed of stones was indeed then rebuilt (for as yet that law was observed which had been made upon tables of stone), yet no new covenant was given, but they used the Mosaic law until the coming of the Lord; but from the Lord’s advent, the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.” [Isa. ii. 3, 4; Mic. iv. 2, 3.]Irenaeus,Book IV, Chapter XXXIV.—Proof against the Marcionites, that the prophets referred in all their predictions to our Christ.

Isaiah 65:21
“And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves.” [Isa. lxv. 21.] For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXXV

Isaiah 65:22
And again he says, “Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will set your graves open, and cause you to come out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall open your sepulchres, that I may bring my people again out of the sepulchres: and I will put my Spirit into you, and ye shall live; and I will place you in your land, and ye shall know that I am the Lord. I have said, and I will do, saith the Lord.” [Ezek. xxxvii. 12, etc]. As we at once perceive that the Creator (Demiurgo) is in this passage represented as vivifying our dead bodies, and promising resurrection to them, and resuscitation from their sepulchres and tombs, conferring upon them immortality also (He says, “For as the tree of life, so shall their days be” [Isa. lxv. 22.] ), He is shown to be the only God who accomplishes these things, and as Himself the good Father, benevolently conferring life upon those who have not life from themselves.
Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XV.—Proofs of the resurrection from Isaiah and Ezekiel; the same God who created us will also raise us up.

[mikewhitney]

The key (to aid in understanding Zech 12-14) that I draw from scriptures is that we must distinguish between Israel, old Jerusalem, and new Jerusalem.

Israel, in the end, consisted of the Jews who accepted Christ and hence fulfilled the promise that Israel would be saved.

Old Jerusalem was the physical Jerusalem and was surrounded by the Roman armies in its destruction. This judged city of Jerusalem is implied in Zec 12:2,11 and 14:2

New Jerusalem was the city of God born out of the destruction of the physical Jerusalem. I think this would be the church having gained the role and glory of Jerusalem after its (the physical Jerusalem's) destruction. Zec 12:10.

We can note in Zec 12:8 that the 'feeble' doesn't have to point to weak soldiers suddenly becoming strong and fighting off Roman (or other) soldiers. Instead I think this is representative of God's protection of weak believers from those who try to remove them from their relationship with God.

I haven't read up on other theories on Zech 12-14 (except for a quick look at something from liberty.edu). And this was just a quick look at Zech 12-14 to see what the fuss was about. But the problems between verses like 12:2 ( plus 14:2) regarding troubles and verses 13:1-2, as well as 14:11, regarding the benefits to Jerusalem can best be reconciled with awareness of the key I have mentioned about.

Of course, even with this discovery, the text is still very complex to read and, for me right now, to figure out exactly which verses are talking about good things and which are about bad things. ( e.g., Zech 12:6 and 13:3-4).

We have to remember in all this that Zech 12:10 was shown to be fulfilled in John 19:36-37 and Zech 13:7 in Mark 14:27. So there are reasons to expect that the prophecies of Zech 12-14 were being fulfilled at that time.

Now I should also add that the kingdom of God then started around AD70 -- but this is too much to discuss at the moment.