There's nothing convoluted about what I put forward. Jesus did not bring a "New Covenant", that's a projection of the early church onto what he taught. The prophesied NC is nothing like NC in the gospels, and Jesus makes pretty strong statements in favour of the Law of Moses. It wasn't until 50AD that they went and took a vote to drop the Law of Moses, and we don't really know what happened either because Acts was written by someone who admired Paul, but it appears they agreed to drop most of the Law. If Jesus had told them from the start to do that, then they wouldn't have had to do it 20 years later - and him saying to do so would be contradictory to his other teachings. So the suggestion that he said "this is my blood of the new covenant" is untenable. If he said anything about a covenant at that meal, he would have either have meant the Mosaic Covenant, or a covenant he felt he had with his disciples.
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Why does Paul lie?
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostThere's nothing convoluted about what I put forward. Jesus did not bring a "New Covenant", that's a projection of the early church onto what he taught. The prophesied NC is nothing like NC in the gospels, and Jesus makes pretty strong statements in favour of the Law of Moses. It wasn't until 50AD that they went and took a vote to drop the Law of Moses, and we don't really know what happened either because Acts was written by someone who admired Paul, but it appears they agreed to drop most of the Law. If Jesus had told them from the start to do that, then they wouldn't have had to do it 20 years later - and him saying to do so would be contradictory to his other teachings. So the suggestion that he said "this is my blood of the new covenant" is untenable. If he said anything about a covenant at that meal, he would have either have meant the Mosaic Covenant, or a covenant he felt he had with his disciples.
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Happily we have the author of Hebrews to give us an accurate exposition of what the Old Testament record meant by the introduction of the New Covenant - so I think we can disregard the latter day teachers' contradictory claims.
And the Jews are fully cognisant with the signification of New Covenant - it means any pre-existing covenant is obsolescent ... just as the author of Hebrews explains.Last edited by tabibito; 06-19-2017, 04:56 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostHappily we have the author of Hebrews to give us an accurate exposition of what the Old Testament record meant by the introduction of the New Covenant - so I think we can disregard the latter day teachers' contradictory claims.
And the Jews are fully cognisant with the signification of New Covenant - it means any pre-existing covenant is obsolescent ... just as the author of Hebrews explains.
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If a modern Jew became a Christian, how would you guys answer their question to you of "does God want me to follow the Mosaic law? I get that it's not a salvation issue, but I wish to follow God's will for my life.""I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf a modern Jew became a Christian, how would you guys answer their question to you of "does God want me to follow the Mosaic law? I get that it's not a salvation issue, but I wish to follow God's will for my life."
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Near as I can tell, Paul had no problem with people following the OT laws - provided that they didn't try to impose those laws on others. But that only went so far, as is demonstrated by his rebuke directed at Peter.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf a modern Jew became a Christian, how would you guys answer their question to you of "does God want me to follow the Mosaic law? I get that it's not a salvation issue, but I wish to follow God's will for my life."Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostThere's nothing convoluted about what I put forward. Jesus did not bring a "New Covenant", that's a projection of the early church onto what he taught. The prophesied NC is nothing like NC in the gospels, and Jesus makes pretty strong statements in favour of the Law of Moses. It wasn't until 50AD that they went and took a vote to drop the Law of Moses, and we don't really know what happened either because Acts was written by someone who admired Paul, but it appears they agreed to drop most of the Law. If Jesus had told them from the start to do that, then they wouldn't have had to do it 20 years later - and him saying to do so would be contradictory to his other teachings. So the suggestion that he said "this is my blood of the new covenant" is untenable. If he said anything about a covenant at that meal, he would have either have meant the Mosaic Covenant, or a covenant he felt he had with his disciples.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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"this is my blood of the new covenant"
Where's the problem?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by TheWall View PostI will answer that question if asked.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Well in the old testament law you had tge moral law and the ceremonial law. Interlap between the two exist. When christ died for us he fullfilked the prophecies and the ceremonial law. He became the sacrifice and split the curtain signifying the openness of the new covenant.
Now if you had a muslim or jew who became a christian moral law applies. However they may choose to not eat pork or shellfish or maybe they do. Paul said either was ok when discussing idol meats and celebrations. I hope this helps.sigpic
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Originally posted by Aractus View PostI was reading the Bible and I suddenly realised I had caught Paul out in an outright lie. I decided to test my hypothesis by asking a Christian I know if Paul lies, to which he replied "no". So I said, "what if I can show you an example that clearly shows him lying in one of his letters?" They said "what example". So I asked "well tell me this, how do you think that Paul would have learned about the Last Supper?" They said "well he would have learnt it from the other apostles in Jerusalem". So I asked "is that your final answer, and what if I can show you that Paul claims he didn't learn about it from the other apostles?" They agreed that it would show that Paul is a liar if he claims to learn about the Last Supper some other way.
Well let's have a look at what Paul says:
Paul is clearly claiming the credit for this teaching, he's telling his church in Corinth that he received it directly from the Lord, not from the other apostles. This is even more obvious when it's read in the full context of Corinthians - way back in chapter 9 he starts claiming his credentials as an apostle by claiming that he has seen Jesus, even if the other apostles don't recognise him as an apostle! This is the only time Paul makes a direct claim that he has seen Jesus.
Compare to 1 Cor 15:3 where he gives credit to the apostles for giving him the teaching/creed that he recites there: "For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: ..."
Now I thought that I had a strong case, but wouldn't you know it the Christian insisted that "oh no Paul's not actually claiming credit for the teaching, or that he received it directly from God and not the apostles". Um, WHAT? This entire section of Corinthians he's bad mouthing the other apostles, and claiming that he's the one with the true gospel because he's seen Jesus and has credentials independent of whatever the other apostles might say, and then he claims that he received this message from the Lord, not from the apostles. They might have had a case if he wasn't so clearly telling the Corinth church that he's authority is not given by the other apostles, and that he earned it all by himself!
I think Paul's been caught in a lie here, it's very clear what was going on. He didn't want his church influenced by Peter, James, or the other apostles who didn't view him as an apostle, so he told his church the teaching originates with him, and not with them. But the problem is - he lied.
Thoughts?Last edited by Abigail; 06-20-2017, 12:29 PM.
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