The TULIP.

[Chappie]

"Grace" refers to God's action toward people. God can save all people should He desire. Yet, we understand from the Scriptures that God will not save all people. Thus, God extends some grace to the lost sufficient to prepare them for judgment and God extends greater grace to the elect sufficient to bring them to salvation. The distinction is that the grace God extends to the lost is resistible and not intended to bring them to salvation while the grace extended to the elect is irresistible and effective in bringing the elect to salvation.

I don't know that God's grace "changes" our wants as much as it introduces new wants that then override out old wants.

And the struggle to clean up the untoward aspects of election/irresistible grace, go on and on and on. Still the regressive consequences still has God creating billions of beings in his image just for the sake of torturing them for eternity. And that my good Calvinist friends is the epitome of evil.

Satan is still at work being Satan, and the deceptions go on and on and on…

[bling]

The biggest issue is I see God as the absolute perfection of fairness and justice (treating everyone equally in areas that matter, especially in the area of salvation). To suggest God “arbitrarily” chooses some to be saved and others to be lost is not just or fair.

The ones I have talked with try to drive home the point that for us to be “involved” in our salvation would mean we have done something praise worthy (partly at least earned our salvation), but there is nothing praise worthy about accepting Charity.

I look at the example Christ gave and the words Christ used in the Prodigal Son and we have a person in a dead state (words of Jesus) coming to his own senses and deciding on his own to humbly accept his Father’s help (made a free will decision to accept charity). In the parable the is doing nothing “praise worthy”.

[RBerman]

The biggest issue is I see God as the absolute perfection of fairness and justice (treating everyone equally in areas that matter, especially in the area of salvation). To suggest God “arbitrarily” chooses some to be saved and others to be lost is not just or fair. The ones I have talked with try to drive home the point that for us to be “involved” in our salvation would mean we have done something praise worthy (partly at least earned our salvation), but there is nothing praise worthy about accepting Charity. I look at the example Christ gave and the words Christ used in the Prodigal Son and we have a person in a dead state (words of Jesus) coming to his own senses and deciding on his own to humbly accept his Father’s help (made a free will decision to accept charity). In the parable the is doing nothing “praise worthy”.

Surely it's praiseworthy to come to your senses and humbly accept your Father's help. But backing up to your "arbitary" comment: God does not give us what's fair. We all deserve Hell. God graciously chooses to save some individuals, for reasons sufficient to himself that He has not revealed to us. If "God saves some" requires God to save all in order to be just, then salvation is no longer a matter of grace, but of justice. Tell me true-- when you look at the world, does it appear to you that God treats everyone the same?

[Phat8594]

God does not give us what's fair. We all deserve Hell.

I have often thought of this...and I agree that everyone deserves Hell (based on our own merits). However, that being said, I do not know if I would say that God does not give us what is fair....unless you are to say that God is not fair...which I would say He is.

But of course I would agree that what we see as "fair" probably doesn't begin to do justice as to what is actually fair in the eyes of God.

[Chappie]

Surely it's praiseworthy to come to your senses and humbly accept your Father's help. But backing up to your "arbitrary" comment: God does not give us what's fair. We all deserve Hell. God graciously chooses to save some individuals, for reasons sufficient to himself that He has not revealed to us. If "God saves some" requires God to save all in order to be just, then salvation is no longer a matter of grace, but of justice. Tell me true-- when you look at the world, does it appear to you that God treats everyone the same?

To me, this remains one of the most feeble and illogical attempts by reformed theology to wash away the stench of salvational election imaginable.
Look at the world, is everything fair; if the bible is true then it is...


Luke 16:21-23

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Yes, God is fair minded... The concept of fairmindedness is lost on Calvinists, not lost to God... You can put a mink coat on a donkey, it's still a donkey.

[RBerman]

I have often thought of this...and I agree that everyone deserves Hell (based on our own merits). However, that being said, I do not know if I would say that God does not give us what is fair....unless you are to say that God is not fair...which I would say He is. But of course I would agree that what we see as "fair" probably doesn't begin to do justice as to what is actually fair in the eyes of God.

That depends on how you define "fair." God is holy, just, and righteous. He treats every situation perfectly, within his plan. Some people would use "fair" to describe that situation. Others (such as Bling, apparently) would say that "fair" includes "treating all men the same." God does not do that (in my experience), nor can I find any place in Scripture where he says that he will do that. So if that's what "fair" means, then God is not fair. But he is just. The end of Romans 3 explains that God can be both gracious and just at the same time, because his forgiveness of sins depends upon Christ's propitiating sacrifice, bearing God's wrath over those same sins.

[Phat8594]

would say that "fair" includes "treating all men the same." God does not do that (in my experience),

Yes, I agree that it intellectually dishonest to think that God treats all men the same...and I think it wrong to think that fair = same. I think it is clear (at least from my experience) that this is not the case. However, that being said...I do believe that God holds all men (regardless of their birth/ancestry or works) to the same standard. In this sense, we should at least think God is also impartial in His righteous judgement. In other words, He does not show partiality.

[Chappie]

Yes, I agree that it intellectually dishonest to think that God treats all men the same...and I think it wrong to think that fair = same. I think it is clear (at least from my experience) that this is not the case. However, that being said...I do believe that God holds all men (regardless of their birth/ancestry or works) to the same standard. In this sense, we should at least think God is also impartial in His righteous judgement. In other words, He does not show partiality.

Same standard...
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, {Is this irresistible Grace?

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Upon whom will God have mercy? See passage below.

2.Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

3.Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Same standard for all...

[RBerman]

Yes, I agree that it intellectually dishonest to think that God treats all men the same...and I think it wrong to think that fair = same. I think it is clear (at least from my experience) that this is not the case. However, that being said...I do believe that God holds all men (regardless of their birth/ancestry or works) to the same standard. In this sense, we should at least think God is also impartial in His righteous judgement. In other words, He does not show partiality.

Paul spends the first two and a half chapters of Romans showing this very thing: Jews and Gentiles are judged by the same standard, and all are guilty. We can be certain that whatever God's reason for saving us, it is not because we are better than other men. God said the same thing to the Israelites upon their entry into Canaan (Deuteronomy 9:4ff). His grace is because of his plan, not because of our merits.

[Phat8594]

We can be certain that whatever God's reason for saving us, it is not because we are better than other men

Agreed wholeheartedly...but I definitely believe that God did it because He is who He is and not because of anything inherent in us.

Paul spends the first two and a half chapters of Romans showing this very thing: Jews and Gentiles are judged by the same standard, and all are guilty

Well, I actually think this theme is carried throughout the book of Romans, but that's another topic for another day. :)

[RBerman]

Agreed wholeheartedly...but I definitely believe that God did it because He is who He is and not because of anything inherent in us.

That is exactly right.

Well, I actually think this theme is carried throughout the book of Romans, but that's another topic for another day. :)

The Jew/Gentile theme is carried throughout Romans, but the issue of equal guilt before God is discussed in chapters 2 and 3.

[rhutchin]

"Grace" refers to God's action toward people. God can save all people should He desire. Yet, we understand from the Scriptures that God will not save all people. Thus, God extends some grace to the lost sufficient to prepare them for judgment and God extends greater grace to the elect sufficient to bring them to salvation. The distinction is that the grace God extends to the lost is resistible and not intended to bring them to salvation while the grace extended to the elect is irresistible and effective in bringing the elect to salvation.

I don't know that God's grace "changes" our wants as much as it introduces new wants that then override out old wants.

And the struggle to clean up the untoward aspects of election/irresistible grace, go on and on and on. Still the regressive consequences still has God creating billions of beings in his image just for the sake of torturing them for eternity. And that my good Calvinist friends is the epitome of evil.

Satan is still at work being Satan, and the deceptions go on and on and on…

If you subscribe to the position that some people are saved and some are not, then the only true difference between the two is something that God does (Since they start out the same, don't they?). I do not see how you can avoid that conclusion but you can always explain what you think happens.

Of course, whatever explanation you devise must allow for this:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called,... (Romans 9:21-24)

[rhutchin]

Yes, I agree that it intellectually dishonest to think that God treats all men the same...and I think it wrong to think that fair = same.

Given that all men are the same with regard to sin - All are sinners - how could God be "fair" but not treat all sinners the same. If God is not fair, then we should expect one group of sinners to do something that the remaining sinners do not (e.g., seek salvation). If God were fair, then all should seek salvation, shouldn't they? If not, then salvation would depend on something inherent to the sinner (one is smarter than another or one is born into a Christian family whose parents help him to seek salvation while another is born into a atheist family whose parents don't teach him about God) but you reject this conclusion. Thus, we must conclude that the salvation of some and not all requires that God NOT treat all sinners fairly (i.e., the same). Else, how do you define, "fair."

[Chappie]

If you subscribe to the position that some people are saved and some are not, then the only true difference between the two is something that God does (Since they start out the same, don't they?). I do not see how you can avoid that conclusion but you can always explain what you think happens.

What did God do? I do not have to explain what I think happened; God has already explained what actually happened... This is what he did... John 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Appears to me that God sent his son into the world to save, not to condemn... Now we know what he did...

Of course, whatever explanation you devise must allow for this:

Why should I have to, you do not... You add a little here, take a little from there until you've fixed it just the way you want it...

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

"(Since they start out the same, don't they?)" You cannot even make it past the first sentence before you contradict yourself. Is creating one to honor {you elect I suppose} and the rest to dishonor. Sounds different to me: So which is it, the same, not the same...This passage refers to our station in life, not or position in salvation...

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known,

"What if he did, but then "what if he did not"? This passage does not give a definitive answer either way, if you say it does; please underline the answer within the passages for me. I want to hear scripture, not you; since it was scripture that you appealed to...

endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God is patient to the point of longsuffering on vessels of wrath. "Fitted to destruction" "Fitted", they must meet the criteria for destruction. What is that criteria, that be a lack of faith and rejection of the one that is patient, being not willing that any should perish...

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called,...

(Romans 9:21-24)

"Prepared unto glory": Our new nature, baptism of the Holy Spirit, Indwelling HS, forgiveness of our sin, and salvation by grace through faith. This is how we are prepared...These are the riches of his glory...

Surly you can see that I have embraced the passages without any offense to God…

[Chappie]

Given that all men are the same with regard to sin - All are sinners - how could God be "fair" but not treat all sinners the same. If God is not fair, then we should expect one group of sinners to do something that the remaining sinners do not (e.g., seek salvation). If God were fair, then all should seek salvation, shouldn't they? If not, then salvation would depend on something inherent to the sinner (one is smarter than another or one is born into a Christian family whose parents help him to seek salvation while another is born into a atheist family whose parents don't teach him about God) but you reject this conclusion. Thus, we must conclude that the salvation of some and not all requires that God NOT treat all sinners fairly (i.e., the same). Else, how do you define, "fair."

Sticking to your "all are the same", yet you posted to me passages that you say tell us that God created some for destruction, and some for salvation. Ain't that different Rhut...

So!!!! God is not fair. What is he then, corrupted? Is the HS unfair to the Son, is the Son unfair to the Father, or are they selectively unfair?