The TULIP.

[rhutchin]

What does that say of the love of God, Jn. 3:16, "...that he "thwarted" those who sought to know Christ..."? My verses read a bit different than that. When he declares "...whomsoever...", that means it is all-inclusive.

The determined "election" is based upon acceptance or rejection of Christ, the method that God uses to "pre-determine" the lost and saved. John 3:16 through :21 defines the plan of God.

Even as Christ is depicted as "...slain before the foundation of the world...", the provision, as well as the "condemnation", are established along with the event.

We have to remember that the preaching of the gospel has two purposes. One is to draw the elect to Christ and the other is prepare the non-elect for judgment. It is true that God loved the world and gave His son that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. The result is that He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God explains all this very carefully so that nobody should be ignorant of their standing before Him. In response to this, some will cry out for mercy and some will laugh as if told a joke or rail at the idea that they should be held accountable to any god for what they do.

[rhutchin]

I really don't think it is necessary to make such a separation, unless you believe that "we" control the message in the preaching. I believe the preaching is the vehicle that God uses to allow the Holy Spirit to work in the life of the hearer. I used to think I was preaching toward a particular end, but at the conclusion of the service, somebody responds to a totally different message than I was preaching. The Holy Spirit was at work.

So, God, the Holy Spirit, choose whom He would save through your preaching despite any effort on your part (unintentional, I suspect) to get people to respond other than by that same Holy Spirit.

I understand what you're saying, but sometimes we don't know whether a person is "saved" or not. We preach, or share Christ, and those who are not saved may see the need for salvation, and those who are saved may see the need to come back to Christ. If we assume somebody is saved, we're not likely to try to win them to Christ. I have long ago stopped trying to figure out who in my congregation is saved --- some of them very obviously have the "fruits of the Spirit", but many of them are "church goers".

Yep. It proves what they say about people who "assume" anything.

I firmly believe that we assume too much about our own ability to win people to Christ, or to convict them of sin -- that is the realm of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to be obedient to Christ, and preach the word. I don't see why it's necessary to differentiate between "evangelism" and "discipleship".

I agree. That's where I think people have turned evangelism upside down. They have made evangelism a "decision" at a point in time and forgotten/ignored that it is a life long journey of discipleship.

[rhutchin]

Reformers pray for the same reason, not that it will do any good. It is an exercise in futility just like witnessing to the non-elect...

What do you mean by "witnessing"?

Reformers define witnessing as putting their lives on display in front of all without the need to speak a word of explanation. Their message is the same as that of Christ, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Not all respond to that message; the elect do, the non-elect do not.

[Cow Poke]

What do you mean by "witnessing"?

Reformers define witnessing as putting their lives on display in front of all without the need to speak a word of explanation. Their message is the same as that of Christ, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Not all respond to that message; the elect do, the non-elect do not.

I politely disagree. The life we live certainly has to agree with what we speak, but why do you cite Christ SPEAKING, and our message is the same, but it is supposed to NOT be spoken? To me, witnessing is "whatsoever you do in word or deed", so to speak.

[rhutchin]

What do you mean by "witnessing"?

Reformers define witnessing as putting their lives on display in front of all without the need to speak a word of explanation. Their message is the same as that of Christ, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Not all respond to that message; the elect do, the non-elect do not.

I politely disagree. The life we live certainly has to agree with what we speak, but why do you cite Christ SPEAKING, and our message is the same, but it is supposed to NOT be spoken? To me, witnessing is "whatsoever you do in word or deed", so to speak.

In context, the issue is to define what a person (Chappie in this instance) means when he uses the term, "witnessing."

Our message (our preaching) is that which Christ told us to speak and is the gospel (what else ought we to say?). Our witnessing is the life we live. If our witnessing and our preaching do not agree, then something is wrong with our witness or our preaching. Our speech in ordinary conversation cannot yield both salt and fresh water else there is a problem. So, I am making a distinction between that which we speak in the ordinary affairs of life (being truthful, not slanderous of others, or gossip) and that which we speak in preaching (presenting the gospel to someone).

[Cow Poke]

In context, the issue is to define what a person (Chappie in this instance) means when he uses the term, "witnessing."

Our message (our preaching) is that which Christ told us to speak and is the gospel (what else ought we to say?). Our witnessing is the life we live. If our witnessing and our preaching do not agree, then something is wrong with our witness or our preaching. Our speech in ordinary conversation cannot yield both salt and fresh water else there is a problem. So, I am making a distinction between that which we speak in the ordinary affairs of life (being truthful, not slanderous of others, or gossip) and that which we speak in preaching (presenting the gospel to someone).

Perhaps I misinterpreted...

without the need to speak a word of explanation

Just to be clear, you did not intend to say we just "live the example" and do NOT speak the message, correct?

[Chappie]

This would be an excellent opportunity to distinguish Calvinist theology ("God has already chosen.") from your own claims about what Calvinist theology implies ("Prayer does not avail anything.").

Mr. Berman:
When we talk, we disagree vehemently, I have learned a lot about what's acceptable about Calvinism, as well as what's wrong with it through discussions with you... I am who I am; I am at peace with who I am. Unfortunately that {along with scripture} places me at odds with most of the positions that you espouse. I do not like Calvinism (strong dislike actually) and I have a very uncomfortable dread of one day standing before my maker parroting Calvinism...

My position now is do you want to discuss this with me or not, are you in or out. Just in case you do, and you are prepared to take the heat that certainly will arise in the kitchen, know this. My aversion to Calvinism has created in me as much curiosity concerning John Calvin as the good Calvinist love for the doctrines generated by it. My week seldom pass without 2 to 3 hours minimum of goggling and studying Calvinism.

It is not a complicated system of doctrines; neither is years of study necessary in order to learn what its implications and ultimate conclusions are... My condition is not a lack of knowledge concerning the subject, it's that the more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that I would dread standing before my maker parroting such untoward conclusion; conclusions that that affect the moral character of God. To Calvinism, God is good because he is God, to me God is good because he “IS” good. To you God can and will do anything to glorify himself, to me he is glorified to the max already and just wants us to see him in all his love and goodness.

If I am wrong, then before God, I am wrong: This should disqualify me as one of your supposed elect. But like Queen Ester said, “If I die, I die. Still I would rather respond to him that I was not born hating Calvinism, I learned and reinforced my dislike through many hours of study of scripture that convinced me that he is a much more lovable, compassionate, righteous, just and holy God than he is portrayed to be in reformed doctrines.. I have studied Mr. Calvinism and find Calvinism to be more reflective of his nature and character than it is of God.

I thank God that one does not have to be a Calvinist in order to resolve the mysteries of Calvinism as to whether they are scriptural, logical and reasonable. So I say that I understand Calvinism better than you do because my faith is not all twisted and tied up in its doctrines as yours are. I have faith, but it is not blind faith. There are many professing Calvinist that do not believe as you do, is theirs a lack of understanding as you perceive mine to be.

Respond if you are willing to take the heat instead of hiding behind some supposed sense of holiness. If you chose not to exchange ideas with me, see you in heaven, God willing... I will not sugar coat Calvinism in order to appear holy, compassionate, or friendly to anyone. It is what it is; I am who I am…

"("Prayer does not avail anything."). No response necessary, in or out… Your prayers availeth nothing according to your own doctrines. Your monergistic God decreed everything before you were even a gleam in your daddys eye... That is what I have learned as a unavoidable truth in Calvinism. Googgled it, studied it, listen to many Calvinist espouse it... Your three card molly attempt to get around it does not cut the mustard...

[footwasher]

In context, the issue is to define what a person (Chappie in this instance) means when he uses the term, "witnessing."

Our message (our preaching) is that which Christ told us to speak and is the gospel (what else ought we to say?). Our witnessing is the life we live. If our witnessing and our preaching do not agree, then something is wrong with our witness or our preaching. Our speech in ordinary conversation cannot yield both salt and fresh water else there is a problem. So, I am making a distinction between that which we speak in the ordinary affairs of life (being truthful, not slanderous of others, or gossip) and that which we speak in preaching (presenting the gospel to someone).

If what WE said or did decided who would be saved, NOBODY would be saved.

[footwasher]

The only difference between Catholics and Calvinists... nothing. Both the groups live on a different planet, unreachable by human communication.

The reason that their simplistic views work is that they leave out the uncomfortable bits. Its easier to formulate when you have less elements to fit into the jigsaw. The picture they compose is not recognisable either.

Oh, the Catholics sulk longer.

Mr. Berman:
When we talk, we disagree vehemently, I have learned a lot about what's acceptable about Calvinism, as well as what's wrong with it through discussions with you... I am who I am; I am at peace with who I am. Unfortunately that {along with scripture} places me at odds with most of the positions that you espouse. I do not like Calvinism (strong dislike actually) and I have a very uncomfortable dread of one day standing before my maker parroting Calvinism...

My position now is do you want to discuss this with me or not, are you in or out. Just in case you do, and you are prepared to take the heat that certainly will arise in the kitchen, know this. My aversion to Calvinism has created in me as much curiosity concerning John Calvin as the good Calvinist love for the doctrines generated by it. My week seldom pass without 2 to 3 hours minimum of goggling and studying Calvinism.

It is not a complicated system of doctrines; neither is years of study necessary in order to learn what its implications and ultimate conclusions are... My condition is not a lack of knowledge concerning the subject, it's that the more I learn about it, the more I am convinced that I would dread standing before my maker parroting such untoward conclusion; conclusions that that affect the moral character of God. To Calvinism, God is good because he is God, to me God is good because he “IS” good. To you God can and will do anything to glorify himself, to me he is glorified to the max already and just wants us to see him in all his love and goodness.

If I am wrong, then before God, I am wrong: This should disqualify me as one of your supposed elect. But like Queen Ester said, “If I die, I die. Still I would rather respond to him that I was not born hating Calvinism, I learned and reinforced my dislike through many hours of study of scripture that convinced me that he is a much more lovable, compassionate, righteous, just and holy God than he is portrayed to be in reformed doctrines.. I have studied Mr. Calvinism and find Calvinism to be more reflective of his nature and character than it is of God.

I thank God that one does not have to be a Calvinist in order to resolve the mysteries of Calvinism as to whether they are scriptural, logical and reasonable. So I say that I understand Calvinism better than you do because my faith is not all twisted and tied up in its doctrines as yours are. I have faith, but it is not blind faith. There are many professing Calvinist that do not believe as you do, is theirs a lack of understanding as you perceive mine to be.

Respond if you are willing to take the heat instead of hiding behind some supposed sense of holiness. If you chose not to exchange ideas with me, see you in heaven, God willing... I will not sugar coat Calvinism in order to appear holy, compassionate, or friendly to anyone. It is what it is; I am who I am…

"("Prayer does not avail anything."). No response necessary, in or out… Your prayers availeth nothing according to your own doctrines. Your monergistic God decreed everything before you were even a gleam in your daddys eye... That is what I have learned as a unavoidable truth in Calvinism. Googgled it, studied it, listen to many Calvinist espouse it... Your three card molly attempt to get around it does not cut the mustard...

[Chappie]

If what WE said or did decided who would be saved, NOBODY would be saved.

James 5:19-20King James Version (KJV)
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

In order to accomplish his purposes, God does not solely rely on decrees; God has graciously determined to use ordinary men to do so. Your prayers /witness are not rendered as vain babbling by predestination, decrees, or infinite regress. When God has prepared a man to receive him, he will send ordinary men to extend the invitation. If one person is disobedient in extending the invitation (witnessing) God will send another that will be obedient. God uses ordinary men... Our reward is obedience: "and shall hide a multitude of sins."

[Chappie]

In context, the issue is to define what a person (Chappie in this instance) means when he uses the term, "witnessing."

Strong's Greek Definition for # 3140
AV - bear witness 25, testify 19, bear record 13, witness 5,
be a witness 2, give testimony 2, have a good report 2, misc 11; 79

1) to be a witness, to bear witness, i.e. to affirm that one has
seen or heard or experienced something, or that he knows it
because taught by divine revelation or inspiration
1a) to give (not to keep back) testimony
1b) to utter honourable testimony, give a good report
1c) conjure, implore

This is what The Chapster means.

Our message (our preaching) is that which Christ told us to speak and is the gospel (what else ought we to say?). Our witnessing is the life we live. If our witnessing and our preaching do not agree, then something is wrong with our witness or our preaching. Our speech in ordinary conversation cannot yield both salt and fresh water else there is a problem. So, I am making a distinction between that which we speak in the ordinary affairs of life (being truthful, not slanderous of others, or gossip) and that which we speak in preaching (presenting the gospel to someone).

Your verbal witness is hindered because without a Calvinist dictionary no one really knows what you are talking about. You change everything.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[footwasher]

James 5:19-20King James Version (KJV)
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

In order to accomplish his purposes, God does not solely rely on decrees; God has graciously determined to use ordinary men to do so. Your prayers /witness are not rendered as vain babbling by predestination, decrees, or infinite regress. When God has prepared a man to receive him, he will send ordinary men to extend the invitation. If one person is disobedient in extending the invitation (witnessing) God will send another that will be obedient. God uses ordinary men... Our reward is obedience: "and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Dear Chap,

You are discussing church discipline; I am discussing witnessing:

52And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old. Matt 13

Quote
1) Did Paul say that those who believed in God prior to Christ go to hell? No.

2) Was there life for those believers prior to Christ's arrival? No (vv. 21-22).

3) What was it like before "this faith came" (v.23)? They were prisoners.

4) Why did God do this? That the law might lead those loyal believers to Christ, and at that time they would receive the "promised" life. They would be a new creation; they would have LIFE.

14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith ---->we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...Arminian/page2

2"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.Gal 2

20"For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Matt 10

10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.John 14

26For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself.John 5

Blessings.

[Cow Poke]

Your verbal witness is hindered because without a Calvinist dictionary no one really knows what you are talking about. You change everything.

I don't need no stinkin dictionary to tell people Jesus died for them.

[Chappie]

I don't need no stinkin dictionary to tell people Jesus died for them.

Well, did he really die for them, or are you just saying that in the heat of witnessing...

If Jesus died only for the elect, how do you know that you are not lying to them.

Without pulling out a calvinist dictionary of words with their meaning, tell someone what the meaning of "the whole world". Now show them thaty meaning is a reformed standardized word dictionary.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the

What does the phrase "whole world" really mean here. Use your deffinition in the above scripture without sounding like a first grader in a 12th grade algebra class....

[rhutchin]

Your verbal witness is hindered because without a Calvinist dictionary no one really knows what you are talking about. You change everything.

One does not need to get into that which the Bible means when it uses such terms as ordain, predestine, faith, grace, etc. One need only tell a person that he will die and stand before God to be judged for his sins. All the person need do is turn from his sins and submit to God's rule over his life. If the person does this, he will then learn of weightier things as he studies the Bible.