For CatholicCity26

[Catholicity]

Just so there is no misunderstanding about God's love in my thoughts .. . . I certainly don't think of it in the way the "Beatles" used it or that "God is fine with anything you want to do or be."

I'm not sure that God's Love can be comprehended by us mere humans. I try and stay away from the dangers of such terms most of the time. Yet there are times when mentioning God's Love and Mercy is relevant. No doubt God is stern in His way . .. another way that I imagine we as finite being cannot imagine.

Extremely true. God's love is infinite and his presence is well just reading Psalm 134 ought to answer questions about it.

Love is very popular right now in Western culture. "All you need is love," said the Beatles. (Right before they broke up. Maybe you need something else after all.) Certainly, love is core to the Biblical message of what God expects of man. But the Biblical view of love is not in the least opposed to the idea of God being a King who demands and deserves obedience. The Biblical idea of light is not so much a "physical and scientific thing" as it is a metaphor for the holy goodness of God. These are profoundly relational things. "God is love" is much abused in our culture to mean, "God is fine with anything you want to do or be." As such, it cannot serve as a helpful summary statement of Christianity, because it requires too much qualification and explanation to mean what it ought to mean, and people go away with a false impression of what Christianity is about.

To add to this, I think many a groups have mistaken that a "loving witness" means that one can do as they please and claim Christianity. This is in fact reminiscient of Laodicean Churches. Neither hot nor Cold. Who do they serve really? Sin, or God. They are often lukewarm. Yet, in so many cases, I less often blame the "children" or the sheep...I blame the leaders, who are well schooled in theology and scripture and have fallen into cultural mantras and led there flocks into the ways of unrighteousness. I often think that the leaders are more accountable for stating untruths rather than the learners who are thirsty for proper instruction.
But how do we go about solving this problem of wrong instruction and hypocrisy in the church? I think that proper correction and proper instruction is a place to start. And not the type of "hyperzealous screaming" I mean proper gentle correction, that comes from the knowledge of the truth of the Scriptures.

[Xru]

I agree. That's why I'm leery of reductionist statements of the "Christianity can be summarized by 'God is love.''" variety. Our society is increasingly illiterate in basic Bible content. I was talking with a 20 year old recently who had no idea who Moses was, for instance. In that cultural climate, it seems irresonsible to offer bromides like "God is love" (or, for that matter, "God is holy") as an opening gambit. They are just going to be misunderstood and leave the listener farther from the truth than when he started. It's sad, but it's reality.

I certainly agree. I am naturally suspicious of any reductionistic statement. The illiteracy of our society continually impresses me and frustrates me. I may have told this story once too often but "I read a post by a young fella who said he was not willing to worship Jesus because Jesus killed his brother." Well . . . I explained that it was Cain that killed Able.

I'm not sure what to do about the "sound bite" milieu we find ourselves in. Instead of wanting complain explanation and the rewards of some hard work people see to want that "God is love" simple answer. Oh the times we live in. (The Name of the Rose) Brother Alberto I think it was.

[Thersites]

Oh, I agree that Buddhism has many differences from Christianity. But none of them were apparent in your definition of the gospel. Granted that a definition is always a simplified summary, surely a Christian gospel definition which omits Christ is missing the point.

Love is very popular right now in Western culture. "All you need is love," said the Beatles. (Right before they broke up. Maybe you need something else after all.) Certainly, love is core to the Biblical message of what God expects of man. But the Biblical view of love is not in the least opposed to the idea of God being a King who demands and deserves obedience. The Biblical idea of light is not so much a "physical and scientific thing" as it is a metaphor for the holy goodness of God. These are profoundly relational things. "God is love" is much abused in our culture to mean, "God is fine with anything you want to do or be." As such, it cannot serve as a helpful summary statement of Christianity, because it requires too much qualification and explanation to mean what it ought to mean, and people go away with a false impression of what Christianity is about.

I'm not trying to explain Christianity to a bunch of drug-addled hippies my peers, I'm discussing my own view with a bunch of people who presumably know what I mean when I say that God is Love. If not, there is a reason I used the Latin phrase. Caritas, unlike the English word love, is a precise term.

[Xru]

Extremely true. God's love is infinite and his presence is well just reading Psalm 134 ought to answer questions about it.

Thank you for the reference. Nice read!

To add to this, I think many a groups have mistaken that a "loving witness" means that one can do as they please and claim Christianity. This is in fact reminiscient of Laodicean Churches. Neither hot nor Cold. Who do they serve really? Sin, or God. They are often lukewarm. Yet, in so many cases, I less often blame the "children" or the sheep...I blame the leaders, who are well schooled in theology and scripture and have fallen into cultural mantras and led there flocks into the ways of unrighteousness. I often think that the leaders are more accountable for stating untruths rather than the learners who are thirsty for proper instruction.

But how do we go about solving this problem of wrong instruction and hypocrisy in the church? I think that proper correction and proper instruction is a place to start. And not the type of "hyperzealous screaming" I mean proper gentle correction, that comes from the knowledge of the truth of the Scriptures.

I hope there is a solution. Your suggestion that it the leaders that bare some responsibility for lack of leadership and perhaps inspiration. Perhaps believers need to be challenged rather than left feeling comfortable in a Faith of mediocrity. I mean really a Faith that is really no Faith at all because we are not challenged to move to a closer place with God and Jesus.

I'm all for trying something new as Church as a social event doesn't seem to be working.

[Catholicity]

I'm all for trying something new as Church as a social event doesn't seem to be working.

It never worked for me.

[RBerman]

I'm not sure what to do about the "sound bite" milieu we find ourselves in. Instead of wanting complain explanation and the rewards of some hard work people see to want that "God is love" simple answer. Oh the times we live in. (The Name of the Rose) Brother Alberto I think it was.

Well, "what to do" is to take the time and start at the beginning. God created the world and the people in it. He deserves our respect and obedience, and following him will cause things to go well for us. He gave us prophets and Scripture to tell us what he expects. We don't meet his standards; we are rebels who deserve his wrath. Instead, he came to earth as Jesus, lived a perfect life, and died an undeserved death. He rose from the dead. We fulfill our destiny by uniting to Jesus through faith. The perfect life he lived can be counted as the perfection God demands from us. The death he died can be counted as the death we deserve. Instead of rebels, we become God's agents and ambassadors, serving his purposes throughout the world, helping our fellow man and telling them about Jesus. Ultimately, Jesus will return and remake the world in perfection, and we will be free to enjoy the good things of God for eternity.

[Xru]

Geez . . . you all are so far ahead of me in knowledge of the Bible and stuff. I am like really humbled!

[Xru]

Well, "what to do" is to take the time and start at the beginning. God created the world and the people in it. He deserves our respect and obedience, and following him will cause things to go well for us. He gave us prophets and Scripture to tell us what he expects. We don't meet his standards; we are rebels who deserve his wrath. Instead, he came to earth as Jesus, lived a perfect life, and died an undeserved death. He rose from the dead. We fulfill our destiny by uniting to Jesus through faith. The perfect life he lived can be counted as the perfection God demands from us. The death he died can be counted as the death we deserve. Instead of rebels, we become God's agents and ambassadors, serving his purposes throughout the world, helping our fellow man and telling them about Jesus. Ultimately, Jesus will return and remake the world in perfection, and we will be free to enjoy the good things of God for eternity.

That is really inspiring. Thank you. I'm trying to do just what you say. I'm so pathetically unequal to the task. I guess I just keep trying, eh.

[Xru]

It never worked for me.

What did you do C?

[Xru]

I find the list in the OP a bit odd. Those are all beliefs that Catholics held until recently, and some may still hold. And there are Protestants who don't hold them. This seems to be a conservative vs. liberal thing more than a Protestant / Catholic thing.

There are,of course plenty of differences between Protestants and Catholics. Those just don't seem to be the most important.

Yes. I'm not in a possition to judge. I have learned more about Catholicism in the thread than I ever knew before praise the Lord. I love my Bothers and Sisters so.

[Catholicity]

It never worked for me.

All of the past actions which have led me to the conclusions of my now held beliefs I would prefer not to answer at this time in this specific thread as it draws to much attention from the OP

[Xru]

It's true that there's no individual Greek word meaning "alone" in that verse. Luther felt that the extra word in German helped clarify the meaning for a German-speaking audience. This sort of thing is done all the time in Bible translation, and it can be not only appropriate but necessary. Things that can be said in one word in one language may take several in another, or vice versa. Of course, one must be careful that the added words do not change the meaning of the original text. I take it that you believe "faith apart from works of the Law" means something different than "faith alone, apart from works of the Law." What difference do you see between those? If we're not justified by faith alone, then we're justified by fath plus something else. What "something else" would not qualify as either "faith" or "works of the Law"?

I understand your point and am anxious to here C26's response. This is what gets me. Does it or does it not make a difference. I can put alone in and take it out and then put it back in again and repeat. And then I can think . .. . well ya. It seems to make some difference. It seems clarifying of confusing depending.

But I can also read it purely from the literal Greek translation without alone in it as "faith alone, etc." meaning that it is only through faith . . . . these subtleties drive me nuts. It's like just tell me already.

It's equally well known that Luther retracted his criticism of James after further study, so I don't know why you hold his early error against him. Surely each of us deserves to be remembered for our mature theology. You agree that Romans 3 at least appears to teach sola fide, so his use of allein in Romans 3:28 is at least arguably defendable, especially in the context of Romans 2-3, which carefully dismantles any hope we would have of earning God's favor through our good deeds. The topic there is "How can we be justified before a holy God, when we sin?" James addresses a totally different topic, namely "How can we demonstrate to ourselves and others that we truly possess saving faith?" James' answer is that our good works justify our claim to faith. Different topic than Romans 3, different usage of "justify," and no conflict whatsoever, as Luther eventually understood.

It seems to me that in James 2:24, he is talking about how the fruits of faith would naturally accrue thereby demonstrating Faith. I don't see how it can be interpritted to command one to do good act, but that the acts will natural accrue through a change of heart. Am I missing something here?

[Xru]

All of the past actions which have led me to the conclusions of my now held beliefs I would prefer not to answer at this time in this specific thread as it draws to much attention from the OP

Okay then:)

[Catholicity]

I understand your point and am anxious to here C26's response. This is what gets me. Does it or does it not make a difference. I can put alone in and take it out and then put it back in again and repeat. And then I can think . .. . well ya. It seems to make some difference. It seems clarifying of confusing depending.

But I can also read it purely from the literal Greek translation without alone in it as "faith alone, etc." meaning that it is only through faith . . . . these subtleties drive me nuts. It's like just tell me already.

It seems to me that in James 2:24, he is talking about how the fruits of faith would naturally accrue thereby demonstrating Faith. I don't see how it can be interpritted to command one to do good act, but that the acts will natural accrue through a change of heart. Am I missing something here?

I think that there is something of a both and here interpretation which is why Scripture cannot be read seperately, or out of its entire context. Its like a giant tapestry that must be read together. I believe if I can pt on my baptist glasses for a moment, that I once believed and adhered to the ideal that works were kind of a by-product of faith, that if we just believed that a "good work" would more or less simply follow. And its not merely that easy. All Christians have a calling to serve one another through Christ, yet, our personality types (forgive the psychobabble here) make this more difficult for some than others. Quite honestly some people would merely be content to perhaps go to Church, come home, and never speak to a soul or "think" that merely by proclaiming the Gospel, and not acting out the fruit of the spirit, they have attained salvation. I am not attuned or in line with such "sunday Christianity." Its a challenge, a real heartfelt challenge to many believers to serve in their "called" mission field. Wherever that may be. It's somewhat self righteous to proclaim that works will simply follow faith, remember that the demons believe, and shudder. They know the truth. It boils down to a keen recognition that we are all called to serve the Lord, and to be His Servants. Once we realize that, whatever weaknesses we have that would inhibit that, we should ask the Lord to aid in overcoming these, so that we may be able to do His work. Remember that when we do for others when we serve others, we are serving Jesus too. (See Matt 25) When we neglect others, we are neglecting Jesus. (again Matt 25) I suppose while there is not a specific "and thou shalt do good works." We do have other commandments that when read together seem to tell us something about our behavior. John 13: 34,35 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. Jesus gave this commandment. and we know what love is from 1 Corinthians 13. We also know how to behave simply from the Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And we do know that our works on this Earth will play a role in our judgement. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, ahe will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Reading on reveals that Jesus is the foundation for which the work is laid, but it is judged. So...meh...there is an intertwinement between works and faith. Did you have faith? Did you live it?

[theblueprint_Ni]

That is really inspiring. Thank you. I'm trying to do just what you say. I'm so pathetically unequal to the task. I guess I just keep trying, eh.

My friend, I think you're missing the point. You guys pounced all over Scrawly for drawing attention (and very respectfully might I add) to a fundamental gospel issue. You might be uncomfortable with the kind of language that explicitly condemns individuals for what they believe but that's exactly what the Bible does. The Bible condemns everyone for what they do, even the most righteous among us. All we have left to rely on is belief (...He who believes in me is not condemned, but he who believes not is condemned already [John 3:18]...). So belief is the primary factor for which we judge (though not the only factor). And there's no need for me to explain what others have already stated here about how right action always follows a repentant sinner.

You have it in mind to look at people as they appear to us - moral, blameless, benevolent - and trivialize their religious beliefs because you consider what people do as far more indicative of who they are rather than what they believe. The problem is that what we see in their outward moral character is not who they are in the sight of God. God sees all men, however outstanding they appear to us, as thieves, liars, adulterers, blasphemers, and haters of God at the core. Anyone who rejects the Person and identity of Jesus Christ rejects God's view of who they are. Our view of people is not superior to God's, therefore you cannot say that [moral]people who don't believe in Christ are good people. It's a rejection of God's perspective and a denial of the blood atonement.

The Bible is explicit and unequivocal about this issue. Those who do not believe in Christ are condemned while they live and will die in their sins. This isn't our personal philosophy on who God is or what it means to be good. It seems that the many of you do this and rely on your reason to guide your understanding of God and salvation rather than revelation through the Bible. We get this directly from the Scriptures, and the verses supporting this truth are too numerous to recount.

Please reconsider your stance, read the New Testament, and understand where we're coming from.