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**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post

Your situation is fine as long as your government is benign, what happens when it is not?

What would you do if the US government turned fascist? Use your gun to kill the entire US army? You've built that war machine up to be bigger than the rest of the world's military combined. You think you, with a pistol, or a rifle has any chance against it? A hundred people like you in a Wako case? Even a hundred thousand US Citizens shoulder to shoulder would be no threat. And in any situation where the US government turned fascist, a lot of citizens would be fascists as well. So now you have to defend yourself against well weaponized fellow citizens who disagrees with your ideology and think you shouldn't live in the country anymore.

**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by Sparko View Post

You are not exactly convincing me that disarming citizens is a good idea.

I have never talked about disarming citizens. You're reading that into what I'm saying. In fact I clarified that I don't think banning guns in the US would work. Just that Denmark doesn't have many guns, and it has some benefits. Namely less gun anxiety for the police.

well think about it, ordinary citizens in the USA can and do own and carry firearms, in public. Yet you don't see mass shootouts and murders going on because of it.

You don't see mass shootings in the US?

**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

Might be interesting to try it by state instead - pick a strong gun control state and a weak gun control state and see how the three compare (as long as you don't use Texas, California or New York).

See I don't think that comparison would work at all, because gun control doesn't really mean anything in the US when its possible for anyone, medical history or not, criminal or not, to tracelessly buy weapons and ammunition in bulk via the gun show loophole. And its not like your car is inspected when you're passing state borders. Denmark has some of the strictest gun laws, as does Germany to the south. Getting weapons here is not straight forward. My father who has worked as a prison guard for fourty years now and has good friends in the police force tells me that unless you're deeply in a gang, you can't get a pistol here.

I'm not saying its impossible for someone to smuggle in a gun. That's how the gangs get them, but beyond that, no its not easy.

**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by seer View Post

Good grief man, you used to be Vikings! What the heck happened!

These monks came by and told us about Christ, and they converted the wife of Svend Tvesk�g, and his wife taught Christianity to her son Harald Bluetooth who had himself baptized, and declared that Denmark should be a Christian nation... he still went on viking raids though 'I hear God in the rain, but Thor in the thunder'. After that Denmark slowly became Christian without much fuss, and we had a string of mediocre kings who started a war to capture glorious territory now and then, which only resulted in more and more lost territory for Denmark, and a lot of wasted lives and money.

Finally Denmark suffered a massive defeat in 1864 at the hands of technologically superior German army. That pretty much broke the danish fighting spirit. We were tired of war, and seeing young men die for no good. WWI came about and we surrendered, again outclassed, outgunned and outnumbered. WWII came about and we were even more outclassed, even more outgunned and even more outnumbered.

**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 04:36 AM

Last year Cow Poke did a thread where people could 'pick my brain' about Denmark. One of the things discussed was why Denmark surrendered during WWII.

This is what I posted.

Originally posted by Leonhard

Originally posted by seer

It seemed to me, when I visited, that Copenhagen was not damaged that much by the war. London in 1975 still had block after block of bombed out buildings.

Denmark surrendered, saving all its jews the night prior by nation wide heroic effort, and an army of fishermen who sailed them to Norway.

The Danish army blew up the depots, the train tracks used by the military, and scuttled all the military vessels in the harbour the same day. The generals retreated to England, the soldiers went to various strategic locations outside of Denmark.

The Germans took over, Freedom Fighters had fun blowing up train tracks so no tank made in Denmark would help the Germans.

"A tank that doesn't fight for the Germans is fighting for the allies" - Freedom Fighter sabotour motto.

Mostly the soldiers posted here were either very young or older soldiers some of whom had also seen WWI. Mostly guard duty and parades. Danes called them the whipcream front.

Originally posted by Leonhard

Originally posted by seer

Not bad, at least you guys did something.

A favorite passtime between military folk is settling the question of whether we could have done anything. The answer is likely not. Our government, wisely or not, betted on Denmark staying relatively neutral. Kept the army to a simmer. When the Germans invaded they met some... twenty danish soldiers, one of them with an artillery cannon dragged along by a bicycle. The rest were elsewhere. One of them died, but nothing more.

I've seen detailed military plans of the ditches that could have been dug, fortifications that could have been built... they had plans to strategically damn various rivers so the entire Southern Jutland would flood and turn muddy, impeding the tanks... train tracks would be blown impeding supply lines... but even with the best estimates I doubt we could have survived long.

We lived right next door to the German war machine. They would have pounded us just to prove that they could. As it was Denmark is merely featured in a lot of propaganda movie pieces from Nazi Germany about how great Nazi occupation was. Whenever you're seeing reels from them about that, its Denmark being featured. A nice rich country full of Arian looking people, all happy and not much trouble.

Gestapo in Denmark was a bit of a specter though, yesh... a lot of Freedom Fighters fell into their clutches, but mostly they left people alone. My grandfather on my fathers side was a 'shoe-shiner' doing work for the Gestapo, setting up barns, fixing electrical problems etc...

**lilpixieofterror** · 06-22-2017, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

What would you do if the US government turned fascist? Use your gun to kill the entire US army? You've built that war machine up to be bigger than the rest of the world's military combined. You think you, with a pistol, or a rifle has any chance against it? A hundred people like you in a Wako case? Even a hundred thousand US Citizens shoulder to shoulder would be no threat. And in any situation where the US government turned fascist, a lot of citizens would be fascists as well. So now you have to defend yourself against well weaponized fellow citizens who disagrees with your ideology and think you shouldn't live in the country anymore.

And yet a bunch of rice farmers managed to drive off both the French Army and later the US Army. You don't fight a superior enemy on his terms unless you want to die yourself. You fight him on your terms. That's how a bunch of rice farmers managed to drive off two large and well armed armies. I could also point out that a single sniper team can successfully pin up a much larger force. A small team can indeed inflict massive damage to a superior force and military history over the past century is proof of this fact.

**lilpixieofterror** · 06-22-2017, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

See I don't think that comparison would work at all, because gun control doesn't really mean anything in the US when its possible for anyone, medical history or not, criminal or not, to tracelessly buy weapons and ammunition in bulk via the gun show loophole. And its not like your car is inspected when you're passing state borders. Denmark has some of the strictest gun laws, as does Germany to the south. Getting weapons here is not straight forward. My father who has worked as a prison guard for fourty years now and has good friends in the police force tells me that unless you're deeply in a gang, you can't get a pistol here.

I'm not saying its impossible for someone to smuggle in a gun. That's how the gangs get them, but beyond that, no its not easy.

This is merely a legend. There is no gun show loophole. Buying a firearm, from any dealer requires a federal background check. The problem is incomplete records that allow people to get firearms that shouldn't. You would also be fighting a losing battle here anyway because only complete searches of all property, could make getting a handgun impossible and not only would that be unconstitutional, but you would have a blood bath on your hands.

**Starlight** · 06-22-2017, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

Might be interesting to try it by state instead - pick a strong gun control state and a weak gun control state and see how the three compare (as long as you don't use Texas, California or New York).

from this short piece. For a longer discussion with more graphs, see The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths.

**lilpixieofterror** · 06-22-2017, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Starlight View Post

from this short piece. For a longer discussion with more graphs, see The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths.

And how many of these gun deaths are suicides and how many are murders? See this is how classic deceptive reporting works. Attempt to group all gun deaths and ignore the fact 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicdes. Ignore the fact strict gun control does little to curb suicide since plenty of nations top the US in suicide rates. Sorry, but I want to see a chart that is for murders only and not just total gun deaths.

**seer** · 06-22-2017, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

These monks came by and told us about Christ, and they converted the wife of Svend Tvesk�g, and his wife taught Christianity to her son Harald Bluetooth who had himself baptized, and declared that Denmark should be a Christian nation... he still went on viking raids though 'I hear God in the rain, but Thor in the thunder'. After that Denmark slowly became Christian without much fuss, and we had a string of mediocre kings who started a war to capture glorious territory now and then, which only resulted in more and more lost territory for Denmark, and a lot of wasted lives and money.

Finally Denmark suffered a massive defeat in 1864 at the hands of technologically superior German army. That pretty much broke the danish fighting spirit. We were tired of war, and seeing young men die for no good. WWI came about and we surrendered, again outclassed, outgunned and outnumbered. WWII came about and we were even more outclassed, even more outgunned and even more outnumbered.

It almost makes one sad that you were Christianized, almost...

**Cerebrum123** · 06-22-2017, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post

I don't want to hear that I'm crazy from someone who speaks garbled Swedish.

Leonard is the Swedish Chef?

**Starlight** · 06-22-2017, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Starlight View Post

from this short piece.

Fixed the link.

Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post

Ignore the fact strict gun control does little to curb suicide since plenty of nations top the US in suicide rates.

? Curbing high rural suicide rates via guns here in NZ was a major motivation for enacting stricter gun control. If there's a gun around it's all to easy for a short period of depression to lead to a suicide. Without access to such an easy and quick method of suicide, people tend to think more about it and be slower to act on impulses.

I want to see a chart that is for murders only and not just total gun deaths.

I didn't spot any online, so I plotted one myself. I grabbed the gun homicide rate data per state from here which happens to be for 2011 (plus looked up Alabama's 2011 data which was missing from that table), and plotted it against the gun-control-law rankings here. Thus giving this 5 minute Excel masterpiece:

The correlation isn't as strong as for total gun deaths, but it does seem to be still there. That dotted trendline is auto-generated, and regardless of what flexibility I gave it, it consistently wanted to have a positive slope across the graph. Overall it would suggest that the strongest gun control laws as compared to the weakest ones, tend to cut the gun homicide rate by around a third and save approximately 1-1.5 lives per 100,000 people per year. On the national scale that suggests that the US could reduce the gun homicide rate by around 2000 lives per year by implementing California-level gun control laws across all states.

**Leonhard** · 06-22-2017, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

Leonard is the Swedish Chef?

In Germany 'Swedish Chef' is 'D�nischer Koch'

**Bill the Cat** · 06-22-2017, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Starlight View Post

The government exists for the purpose of doing the bidding of the people and providing services to us..

Unless you are a blind 5 year old immigrant that is deemed a drain on the medical system...

**One Bad Pig** · 06-22-2017, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Leonhard View Post

I have never talked about disarming citizens. You're reading that into what I'm saying. In fact I clarified that I don't think banning guns in the US would work. Just that Denmark doesn't have many guns, and it has some benefits. Namely less gun anxiety for the police.

You don't see mass shootings in the US?

*snip list*

If you have to deliberately misunderstand Sparko to prove him wrong, you've lost.

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