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Philandro Castile verdict

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  • #16
    9:05:52 – 9:05:55 p.m. — Castile told Yanez: “Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me.” Before Castile completed the sentence, Yanez interrupted and replied, “Okay” and placed his right hand on the holster of his gun.

    9:05:55 – 9:06:02 p.m. — Yanez said “Okay, don’t reach for it, then.” Castile responded: “I’m… I’m … [inaudible] reaching…,” before being again interrupted by Yanez, who said “Don’t pull it out.” Castile responded, “I’m not pulling it out,” and Reynolds said, “He’s not pulling it out.”

    Yanez screamed: “Don’t pull it out,” and pulled his gun with his right hand. Yanez fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. The seventh shot was fired at 9:06:02 p.m. Kauser did not touch or remove his gun.
    Source (same as OP): http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rriage-justice


    Based on a cursory reading of the article OP linked, my take away was that Yanez thought Castille was reaching for his gun and gave verbal commands for him not to reach for it, when what he meant (and should have said), is something more along the lines of "PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE STEERING WHEEL" or "DO NOT MOVE" or "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS". Castille apparently understood the literal meaning of the officer's instruction not to reach for his gun, and assumed it was ok to keep reaching for his license, because he wasn't reaching for his gun. He apparently did not consider that, after being told more than once not to reach for the gun, the officer might be continuing to tell him that because he thought he was still reaching for the gun. Yes, Castille and Reynolds both told Yanez that he wasn't reaching for the gun. But I don't know how much impact saying that would have had on me if I was in the officer's shoes (quite frankly, saying that you're not doing something as you in fact do that very thing is a cheap distraction tactic, and I'd be wary of that).

    Looks like there were mistakes on both sides of the equation here. Any reasonable gun owner should exercise a little caution and be mindful of your body movements during a police encounter. It's just common sense. I do think the officer is more responsible for the outcome than Castille is, so please don't think I'm trying to lay the blame on Castille. I have some very serious concerns about the actions Yanez took (and I'd like to hear from the other officer present).

    But my take on this is that the jury balked at convicting a man of a criminal offense when he likely believed (wrongly or not) that another man was reaching for a gun. I will not render an opinion here as to whether Yanez should have been convicted of a criminal offense (because I don't know enough about the case, and MN state law).
    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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    • #17
      People need to learn how to interact with the police.

      The first rule is to always cooperate. Always follow his instructions, and don't try to argue your case on the spot. As the saying goes, "Save it for the judge."

      The second rule is to always tell the officer what you're going to do before you do it and wait for his assent before you proceed. Even in a simple traffic stop, I'll tell the officer, "My license is in my right front pocket, and my registration is in the glove box." Then I wait for his permission before I move a muscle.

      It's in your best interest to make the officer feel safe, and one way to accomplish that is to allow him to control the situation.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        People need to learn how to interact with the police.
        Chris Rock has a hilarious but all too true video out on the subject called "Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police!"

        No link since it is laced with vulgar language.

        I'm always still in trouble again

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          People need to learn how to interact with the police.

          The first rule is to always cooperate. Always follow his instructions, and don't try to argue your case on the spot. As the saying goes, "Save it for the judge."

          The second rule is to always tell the officer what you're going to do before you do it and wait for his assent before you proceed. Even in a simple traffic stop, I'll tell the officer, "My license is in my right front pocket, and my registration is in the glove box." Then I wait for his permission before I move a muscle.

          It's in your best interest to make the officer feel safe, and one way to accomplish that is to allow him to control the situation.

          Well, yes. I didn't go much into that in my post, as it goes against mainstream political thought and most people don't give a crap about that. However, in all but the most negligent or corrupt instances, at it's root, a negative outcome in a police use of force scenario is the direct consequence of some action taken on the part of the suspect (or in my southern cop jargon, the 'subject').

          In the instant case, if Castille had stopped moving when the officer first told him not to reach for the gun, I'd bet he wouldn't have gotten shot. Once again, I'm not trying to blame the victim here, nor am I lessening Yanez' responsibility. But it was Castille's reaching action and movement (coupled with the annoucement that he had a gun, and that whole 'robbery' angle - whatever that was) that Yanez perceived as a threat.

          More generally speaking, simply not moving (preferably with your hands visible) is a pretty surefire way of not getting yourself hurt during interaction with police. But that requires a personal sense of caution, a willingness to cooperate, and thoughtful consideration of the police officer's perspective. That's far more than one can expect from most citizens in a police-citizen interaction.

          In my own interaction with the police (other police? either way, when I'm not at work...), I keep my hands visible and don't move until I tell them what I'm doing, or they ask me to. Of course, by that point I've already interjected that I'm carrying weapons and that I am a police officer (the legal justification for me to possess concealed weapons in my state). But I digress.
          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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          • #20
            I'd just like to point out that in Denmark we don't need 'how to survive an encounter with the police' courses. Our police officers aren't quite as trigger happy.

            That's one advantage of living in a country where citizens don't have guns.

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            • #21
              SEVEN shots?
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                I'd just like to point out that in Denmark we don't need 'how to survive an encounter with the police' courses. Our police officers aren't quite as trigger happy.

                That's one advantage of living in a country where citizens don't have guns.
                How many microseconds did it take Germany to overrun Denmark in WW2 again?
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  If it exonerated him then the department would no doubt have released it by now given the intense criticism they've received.
                  Um, if it convicted, why didn't prosecution bring it in? If it exists BOTH parties have access - and the prosecution should have had no trouble getting it admitted.

                  Unless the thing shows little or nothing - a dash cam from behind may not be the best video evidence.

                  I think it's sad, no matter who was or was not at fault.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    Don't worry about the dashcam recording. Nothing to see here. We'll just delete it, wouldn't want this controversy to keep burning would we. Afterall the officer felt he saw a gun, ergo he could have done nothing wrong.

                    Like I told KG, BOTH sides have access to evidence - the police department couldn't have merely withheld it.

                    But seriously, if the guy was still in the car, how much could a dashcam from the car behind really show of the interior of the car in question? That you guys don't think it was admitted kinda screams 'problem'.

                    In all likelihood, it didn't show much and it comes down to competing claims between the young lady in the car and the officer. I'm not psychic so I don't know what really happened - I just think it's very sad that the young man died.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I'd just like to point out that in Denmark we don't need 'how to survive an encounter with the police' courses. Our police officers aren't quite as trigger happy.

                      That's one advantage of living in a country where citizens don't have guns.
                      You realize that this could be reversed to blaming Castile - he's the civilian carrying a gun in this instance.

                      Given Myth's commentary, now I'm wondering if the marijuana, presuming it was actually there, played a role. Even mild intoxication does nothing good for your ability to decide how to respond appropriately.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        Like I told KG, BOTH sides have access to evidence - the police department couldn't have merely withheld it.

                        But seriously, if the guy was still in the car, how much could a dashcam from the car behind really show of the interior of the car in question? That you guys don't think it was admitted kinda screams 'problem'.

                        In all likelihood, it didn't show much and it comes down to competing claims between the young lady in the car and the officer. I'm not psychic so I don't know what really happened - I just think it's very sad that the young man died.
                        Its definitely sending the signal that 'You can do almost everything completely right, but if the officer feels your hand is where it shouldn't be, then in a split second he can, with full legal justification, unload his entire clip of ammunition into you and then later yell at your girlfriend for trying to record him'

                        Its not just sad, it should get people mad. Especially that Yanez very likely is merely going to move to a different state and resume being an officer, pointing his gun at new people.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          How many microseconds did it take Germany to overrun Denmark in WW2 again?
                          ouch...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            Its not just sad, it should get people mad. Especially that Yanez very likely is merely going to move to a different state and resume being an officer, pointing his gun at new people.
                            Nobody in their right mind is gonna hire this guy.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              How many microseconds did it take Germany to overrun Denmark in WW2 again?
                              IIRC, Denmark chose not to resist. They were at a significant disadvantage.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by myth View Post
                                In the instant case, if Castille had stopped moving when the officer first told him not to reach for the gun, I'd bet he wouldn't have gotten shot.
                                I agree. And it was the officer's job to tell him exactly what to do. Given that he gave two contradictory orders beforehand he should've specifically told castille to keep his hands where he can see them when he was informed of the gun. Instead he let castille think he was complying then shot him. I usually give cops the benefit of the doubt, but up to a point. You can't just say you were scared of being shot as an excuse to kill innocent people. There has to be reasonable circumstances under which the cop would feel it was necessary to shoot and this doesn't come even remotely close.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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