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Philandro Castile verdict

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    IIRC, Denmark chose not to resist. They were at a significant disadvantage.
    Exactly.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Its definitely sending the signal that 'You can do almost everything completely right, but if the officer feels your hand is where it shouldn't be, then in a split second he can, with full legal justification, unload his entire clip of ammunition into you and then later yell at your girlfriend for trying to record him'
      Like I said, 'in US cops are (in some situations) judge, jury, also executioner'. People who don't realise, also accept this only put themselves at big big danger!!!

      But I also think police officer screwed up, yes. Which means both parties screwed up!
      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        People need to learn how to interact with the police.

        The first rule is to always cooperate. Always follow his instructions, and don't try to argue your case on the spot. As the saying goes, "Save it for the judge."

        The second rule is to always tell the officer what you're going to do before you do it and wait for his assent before you proceed. Even in a simple traffic stop, I'll tell the officer, "My license is in my right front pocket, and my registration is in the glove box." Then I wait for his permission before I move a muscle.

        It's in your best interest to make the officer feel safe, and one way to accomplish that is to allow him to control the situation.
        But the problem is, it appears that the guy did do all of this.

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        SEVEN shots?
        What does the number of shots matter? When you shoot, you're already committed to killing someone. Whether they shot once or seven shots doesn't matter; heck, if you believe the person was dangerous enough to shoot, then you probably should be shooting multiple times to make sure absolutely sure they still down. The question is whether they should have shot at all. If it was correct to shoot, whether they shot once or seven times is irrelevant. If it was incorrect to shoot... then it's still irrelevant because they shouldn't have shot at all.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          But the problem is, it appears that the guy did do all of this.

          What does the number of shots matter? When you shoot, you're already committed to killing someone. Whether they shot once or seven shots doesn't matter; heck, if you believe the person was dangerous enough to shoot, then you probably should be shooting multiple times to make sure absolutely sure they still down. The question is whether they should have shot at all. If it was correct to shoot, whether they shot once or seven times is irrelevant. If it was incorrect to shoot... then it's still irrelevant because they shouldn't have shot at all.

          It matters because it indicates something about the officer - a guy in a car is not still advancing so unloading a clip is probably not justified.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            I agree. And it was the officer's job to tell him exactly what to do. Given that he gave two contradictory orders beforehand he should've specifically told castille to keep his hands where he can see them when he was informed of the gun. Instead he let castille think he was complying then shot him. I usually give cops the benefit of the doubt, but up to a point. You can't just say you were scared of being shot as an excuse to kill innocent people. There has to be reasonable circumstances under which the cop would feel it was necessary to shoot and this doesn't come even remotely close.
            I've already addressed this in my original comment. I put examples of what the officer SHOULD have said in all caps, and provided three examples of better commands to give.
            "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              It matters because it indicates something about the officer - a guy in a car is not still advancing so unloading a clip is probably not justified.
              Please consider that I can fire 7 rounds from my duty weapon in about 3 seconds, probably under 3 seconds. Now consider how long it would take a stressed out human to realize the 'threat' has been stopped, and decide to stop. 1-1.5 seconds, maybe? It's possible anywhere from 2-4 of those rounds were fired in the time it took Yanez to make the decision to stop shooting.
              Last edited by myth; 06-18-2017, 06:23 PM.
              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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              • #37
                Originally posted by myth View Post
                Please consider that I can fire 7 rounds from my duty weapon in about 3 seconds, probably under 3 seconds. Now consider how long it would take a stressed out human to realize the 'threat' has been stopped, and decide to stop. 1-1.5 seconds, maybe? It's possible anywhere from 2-4 of those rounds were fired in the time it took Yanez to make the decision to stop shooting.
                No, I did consider that - which was why I stated probably. I should have been clearer - the number of shots is relevant as it tells about the officer. That's not the same thing as definitive nor would I argue that the officer was definitely in the wrong based on the number of shots. My only point is that it should be considered when weighing the evidence.

                But I am unclear on your point - are you stating you can pull the trigger to successively fire 7 times in 3 seconds or that the weapon discharges that quickly? The only reason I ask is the successive pulls may (or may not) be significant. I presumed the former - which is what brings the continuation of fire into question (for someone expert enough to evaluate it - that would not be me).
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by myth View Post
                  Please consider that I can fire 7 rounds from my duty weapon in about 3 seconds, probably under 3 seconds. Now consider how long it would take a stressed out human to realize the 'threat' has been stopped, and decide to stop. 1-1.5 seconds, maybe? It's possible anywhere from 2-4 of those rounds were fired in the time it took Yanez to make the decision to stop shooting.
                  Further, if a police officer fires his weapon at a suspect they are supposed to be shooting to kill and given that even a fatally wounded person can still be extremely dangerous they often empty the weapon into the individual making sure that they are rendered completely incapable of harm as fast as possible

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    given that even a fatally wounded person can still be extremely dangerous
                    This was well demonstrated in the 1983 documentary Scarface.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by myth View Post
                      I've already addressed this in my original comment. I put examples of what the officer SHOULD have said in all caps, and provided three examples of better commands to give.
                      Not really, your original comment makes it sound like they're both equally guilty and doesn't take a side either way.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by myth View Post
                        Source (same as OP): http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rriage-justice


                        Based on a cursory reading of the article OP linked, my take away was that Yanez thought Castille was reaching for his gun and gave verbal commands for him not to reach for it, when what he meant (and should have said), is something more along the lines of "PLACE YOUR HANDS ON THE STEERING WHEEL" or "DO NOT MOVE" or "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS". Castille apparently understood the literal meaning of the officer's instruction not to reach for his gun, and assumed it was ok to keep reaching for his license, because he wasn't reaching for his gun. He apparently did not consider that, after being told more than once not to reach for the gun, the officer might be continuing to tell him that because he thought he was still reaching for the gun. Yes, Castille and Reynolds both told Yanez that he wasn't reaching for the gun. But I don't know how much impact saying that would have had on me if I was in the officer's shoes (quite frankly, saying that you're not doing something as you in fact do that very thing is a cheap distraction tactic, and I'd be wary of that).

                        Looks like there were mistakes on both sides of the equation here. Any reasonable gun owner should exercise a little caution and be mindful of your body movements during a police encounter. It's just common sense. I do think the officer is more responsible for the outcome than Castille is, so please don't think I'm trying to lay the blame on Castille. I have some very serious concerns about the actions Yanez took (and I'd like to hear from the other officer present).

                        But my take on this is that the jury balked at convicting a man of a criminal offense when he likely believed (wrongly or not) that another man was reaching for a gun. I will not render an opinion here as to whether Yanez should have been convicted of a criminal offense (because I don't know enough about the case, and MN state law).
                        Yeah that is pretty much my take. We don't have all the facts but apparently a jury thought it was not convictable. The cop seemed way too jittery but we don't have all the facts. And as you said, the guy should have just stopped moving when the cop showed how concerned he was by saying "don't reach for it" over and over. My first instinct would be to stop moving and slowly put my hands on the steering wheel.

                        Actually I would have had my hands on the wheel when I told the cop I had a gun and not moved until he told me I could.
                        Last edited by Sparko; 06-19-2017, 07:35 AM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          I'd just like to point out that in Denmark we don't need 'how to survive an encounter with the police' courses. Our police officers aren't quite as trigger happy.

                          That's one advantage of living in a country where citizens don't have guns.
                          seems like they do according to the news.

                          https://www.thelocal.dk/20170501/dan...-in-copenhagen
                          https://www.thelocal.dk/20170403/thr...rk-supermarket
                          https://www.thelocal.dk/20161123/two...store-shooting

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by myth View Post
                            Based on a cursory reading of the article OP linked.
                            It's not that long. There's no excuse for a cursory reading, particularly when you're going to make a few posts defending the officer's actions. The officer is and was 100% in the wrong here. He overreacted.
                            I'm not here anymore.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              But I am unclear on your point - are you stating you can pull the trigger to successively fire 7 times in 3 seconds or that the weapon discharges that quickly? The only reason I ask is the successive pulls may (or may not) be significant. I presumed the former - which is what brings the continuation of fire into question (for someone expert enough to evaluate it - that would not be me).
                              Either answer raises the question of why that's the case. What was the incident where the guy got shot (killed?) with his toddler in the back seat...maybe need to implement a "don't just keep firing" training...
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                Not really, your original comment makes it sound like they're both equally guilty and doesn't take a side either way.
                                Come on, now. I'm a cautious fellow by nature, and this is a public thread debating another officer's actions in a deadly use of force incident. The fact that I'm publicly critiquing anything an officer did in such a highly publicized incident, during a time in which even 'good shoots' have lay people screaming for the officer's head on a platter, should be a clue for you as to my suspicions about what happened.

                                What you and many others here probably want from me is a 'slam-dunk' comment condemning the officer's actions. I'll call a spade a spade, but I'd only do that publicly if I'm pretty darned sure. In this case, I don't know quite enough to go that far. Take that for what you will.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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