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On Bertrand Russell’s argument against the First Cause Argument for God's Existence.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    1. God cannot be the author of a defect.
    2. The prime cause is the prime cause of all secondary causes.
    3. Defects exist.
    4. At least one defect is not the prime cause.
    5. From 3&4, there are defects that are secondary causes.
    6. From 2&5, the prime cause is the prime cause of defects.
    7. From 1&6, God is not the prime cause.

    Which premise (1, 2, 3 or 4) would you like to reject?
    I reject 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.

    Reject 2, because you think a secondary cause is also a defect (non being), when a secondary cause has being.

    Reject 3, because you think a defect is a being, when it is a lack of being.

    Reject 4, because you think a defect is a being.

    Reject 5 for defects are not secondary causes. Defects lack being and causes have being.

    Reject 6. for the prime cause has being is the prime cause cannot cause the non being of defects.

    Reject 7. for 6 is false.

    You got 1 right. Well done.

    JM
    Last edited by JohnMartin; 06-20-2017, 08:05 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      Unsupported assertion.

      Are you going to admit that using an irrelevant premise is not a fallacy?
      I'm not really sure what you were talking about in the prior post, so I gave an additional explanation which you have not engaged.

      JM

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
        The prime cause is the prime cause of all secondary causes. The mystery is how does the prime cause [causes] a free agent, whilst acting in accord with the agents freedom? Hence the mystery.

        JM

        But there is a contradiction. If your first cause is causing in accord with the agent’s choice (by free will), then its causing is caused, and consequently it’s not a first cause. That’s the definition of first cause, you see: not being caused by something else.
        Yes, the human wills act to will is caused by God, who brings the human will from can will to does will. God creates the human will which according to the nature of human will is free, or unbound. God then moves the human will to bid. Your claim that God as cause, is caused by the will and therefore God is not the prime cause is false.



        Put differently, you say:
        - A free agent (=secondary cause) chooses
        - He is caused to do so by a prime cause
        - Who is acting in accord with free will choice of the agent
        - Which in turn is caused by the prime cause
        - Who in turn is acting on the free will choice of the agent
        - Which in turn is caused by the prime cause
        - et cetera

        But this is worse than an infinite regression of causes – which you claim doesn’t even exist. Your reasoning is like baron Münchhausen pulling himself out of a mire.
        Your circular causation is false. God as the prime moves all secondary causes. Some secondary causes are unfree, some are free. Freedom of a secondary cause does not infer God is dependent upon the free choice and moves in response to the free act of the human will. God is ontologically prior to all secondary causes and always acts as the prime cause.

        You have assumed God is dependent upon human free acts of the will, when in fact men are always dependent upon God for the nature of the will as free, and for the use of the will freely enacted by God to bid.

        God is also outside time and knows all possibles, so He does not act in response to human acts of the will as though God is acting from knowledge He attains which is dependent upon the acts of a secondary agent. God is not dependent upon any secondary agent, but always acts co-naturally with secondary agents.

        JM

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JM, earlier
          The prime cause is the prime cause of all secondary causes.
          Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
          ...
          2. The prime cause is the prime cause of all secondary causes.
          ...
          Which premise (1, 2, 3 or 4) would you like to reject?
          I reject 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
          So you reject your own premises.

          Also, you don't know what defects are and can't tell the difference between premises and conclusions.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
          MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
            Unsupported assertion.

            Are you going to admit that using an irrelevant premise is not a fallacy?
            I'm not really sure what you were talking about in the prior post, so I gave an additional explanation which you have not engaged.
            So you won't admit to error.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
            MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
              Therefore, God can cause nothing.
              No. I only stated two truths.
              That God is infinite and that all causes are finite and temporal.
              I did not make any full argument.
              I omitted the uncaused Cause. Without which there are no causes.
              God is infinite and Personal.
              God is the uncaused Existence. All finite and temporal things are contingent on existing.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                No. I only stated two truths.
                That God is infinite and that all causes are finite and temporal.
                I did not make any full argument.
                I omitted the uncaused Cause. Without which there are no causes.
                God is infinite and Personal.
                God is the uncaused Existence. All finite and temporal things are contingent on existing.
                Matter isn't finite or temporal, only the forms that it takes are.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Matter isn't finite or temporal, only the forms that it takes are.
                  JimLism.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                    Your circular causation is false. God as the prime moves all secondary causes. Some secondary causes are unfree, some are free. Freedom of a secondary cause does not infer God is dependent upon the free choice and moves in response to the free act of the human will. God is ontologically prior to all secondary causes and always acts as the prime cause.
                    Good. That a little clearer. Now let’s put it in a little syllogism. According to you:

                    1. God is the prime cause of all secondary causes.
                    2. The choices we make are a secondary cause.

                    Therefore it follows:

                    3. God is the prime cause of the choices we make.

                    And thus we are not. But why then is the burglar responsible for his decision to burgle, when the prime cause for that decision is the God you propose?

                    You have assumed God is dependent upon human free acts of the will, when in fact men are always dependent upon God for the nature of the will as free, and for the use of the will freely enacted by God to bid.
                    I have not assumed that, it’s what I got from you. And I have not been talking about the cause for free will, but about the cause for our choices. Free will doesn’t cause anything, it makes it possible to choose (and with that cause).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      crepuscule,

                      God caused beings to be self willed and so to be responsible for their own actions.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        crepuscule,

                        God caused beings to be self willed and so to be responsible for their own actions.
                        I know that is the theist position. But -according to a theist- who or what is ultimately the first cause for our actions or our decisions?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
                          I know that is the theist position. But -according to a theist- who or what is ultimately the first cause for our actions or our decisions?
                          Our two parents. Their parents. So on and so forth.

                          God made Adam and from Adam He made Eve. Man contrary to God's instructions acquired God's knowledge of good and evil.

                          OK, now your point?
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Our two parents. Their parents. So on and so forth.
                            How do I have free choice if the decisions I apparently made were in fact made by "my parents, their parents, so ond and so forth" all the way back to a first cause?


                            God made Adam and from Adam He made Eve. Man contrary to God's instructions acquired God's knowledge of good and evil.

                            OK, now your point?
                            ..contrary to God's instructions? Then (again from a theist's perspective) who or what ultimately caused Adam and Eve to acquire knowledge of good and evil?

                            You see, what I'm thinking is that either our decisions can be causally traced back to a (first) cause beyond our control, in which case we're not responsible, or they can't (for instance because I am the first cause for my decisions), in which case the first cause argument fails. Free will seems to exclude a single first cause.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                              Therefore, God can cause nothing.
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              No. I only stated two truths.
                              That God is infinite and that all causes are finite and temporal.
                              I did not make any full argument.
                              Whether you made the argument is beside the point. Your two statements logically imply a certain conclusion, and that conclusion is that God cannot be a cause of anything. (That was my intended meaning of "God can cause nothing.")

                              Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                              I omitted the uncaused Cause.
                              You said: "all causes are finite and temporal." You did not say "some causes" or "most causes" or "all causes with one exception." You said "all causes."

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                                God can cause any possible. God cannot cause nothing. For nothing is not an effect of a cause.

                                JM
                                I was careless. I should have written "Therefore, God cannot be a cause of anything."

                                Comment

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