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manoah & the Angel of the Lord

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I don't see why Ezekiel has to describe the Word of God simply because Isaiah 6 does. As I understand it actual appearances by God in the OT are always of the Son, while visions can be of any of the three Persons in the Trinity, or atleast that's how I understand the passages in the NT saying that no one has ever/cannot see the Father. We know that the vision Isaiah had of God in chapter 6 was of the Son because John explicitly tells us so, but AFAICT it's not explicitly stated anywhere in the OT or NT whether Ezekiel had a vision of the Father or of the Son, so it has to be ascertained in some other way, if there indeed is a way for us to know.

    And it's not like the person sitting on the throne has to be the same in both instances, even if the setting is the same. Given that the throne stands for Gods universal dominion and sovereignty, I think it's safe to assume that the person sitting on it can be either the Father, or the Son, depending on what God wants to convey with the vision.
    A vision of someone sitting on a throne is basically a representative dream, symbolic in nature. It represents God. Doesn't mean it actually IS God. It's a vision. Like seeing a lamb represents Jesus. Doesn't mean Jesus is an actual lamb.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      A vision of someone sitting on a throne is basically a representative dream, symbolic in nature. It represents God. Doesn't mean it actually IS God. It's a vision. Like seeing a lamb represents Jesus. Doesn't mean Jesus is an actual lamb.
      Sure, but the question is if the vision represents God the Son, or God the Father.

      Or perhaps the question is simply misguided, I don't know.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        But the NT does say, in numerous places (mostly in the Gospel of John and his first letter) that no one has ever seen the Father, except the Son, and that it is impossible to see the Father except through the Son. In light of this it cannot have been anyone other than the Son who appeared to all these people in OT times.
        John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at any time." If Moses, Gideon, Joshua, Jacob etc. saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, weren't they doing exactly that?
        When I Survey....

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          John 1:18 says "No man has seen God at any time." If Moses, Gideon, Joshua, Jacob etc. saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, weren't they doing exactly that?
          God in John 1:18 refers to God the Father, not God as in the Godhead which is clear from the context.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Sure, but the question is if the vision represents God the Son, or God the Father.

            Or perhaps the question is simply misguided, I don't know.
            doesn't matter since even if it represents the Father, they are not SEEING the Father, just a symbol representing him in a vision.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              God in John 1:18 refers to God the Father, not God as in the Godhead which is clear from the context.
              It says God. It doesn't specify. That's how I take it. God cam manifest Himself as a symbol or an image any way, ant time He wants. Even as an angel. Or a man. It's not God they saw. God is a Spirit.
              When I Survey....

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Faber View Post
                It says God. It doesn't specify. That's how I take it.
                But it does specify:

                Source: John 1:18 ESV

                18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

                © Copyright Original Source



                There's two persons who's called God here. The second Person in this verse to be called God is "at the Father's side" and makes Him, i.e the Father( which refers back to the first "God" in this verse) known. In other words, the second person in this verse is the Son/Logos, who makes the first Person, the Father, known.

                Originally posted by Faber View Post
                God cam manifest Himself as a symbol or an image any way, ant time He wants. Even as an angel. Or a man. It's not God they saw. God is a Spirit.
                If these people didn't see God when they saw these manifestations of Him, did the disciples also not see God when they looked at Jesus?

                Comment


                • #23
                  After looking at the passage further, I think it's possible that the glowing man and the lamb are both meant to represent Jesus. It may be showing Jesus in his pre-incarnation state, and then illustrating that he needed to become a man and endure the cross in order to break the seals.

                  Also, in Revelation 4, it may be that the glowing man represents the Word, the lamps represent the Spirit, and the lightning, thunder, and voices represent the Father.

                  Revelation 4:2-5
                  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. . . . And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    In Ezekiel 1, you have fire like "lamps" that goes up and down the four living creatures and enables the creatures to travel with lightning. This fire may be showing that the Holy Spirit somehow works through or empowers the creatures. The flapping wings of all four creatures can also join together to sound like a voice -- presumably the voice of God the Father (or possibly the Holy Spirit). There is also another voice from the throne itself, presumably another voice from the Father. Then there is also a being on the throne that looks like man. This would be the Word of God. So Ezekiel seems to be describing at least two members of the Trinity, or more likely all three.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      I think the one who sits on the throne in Revelation 4-5 is the Father. My guess is that having a vision of the Father isn't the same as actually seeing Him. I don't think the Father has ever taken a visible pre-incarnate form the same way that the Son has done.
                      Maybe. But "no-one has" doesn't mean "no-one ever will" ...
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        If these people didn't see God when they saw these manifestations of Him, did the disciples also not see God when they looked at Jesus?
                        Definitely, they saw the Father.

                        Source: John 14:8-9

                        Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        When I Survey....

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          They saw a reflection or image of the Father, not the Father himself. That's what he means. He isn't calling himself the Father.

                          John 1:14
                          And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            The Angel of the Lord in the OT is a great topic. One of my favorite encounters is with Manoah and his wife:

                            1)The connection between the angel of the Lord and the preincarnate appearance of the Messiah cannot be denied. Manoah meets the angel of the Lord, and declares that he has seen God. The angel accepts worship from Manoah and his wife as no mere angel, and refers to himself as "Wonderful," the same term applied to the coming deliverer in Isaiah 9:6 ( Jud 13:9-22 ). The functions of the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament prefigure the reconciling ministry of Jesus. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the angel of the Lord; the Messiah himself is this person.

                            Source: http://www.biblestudytools.com/dicti...-the-lord.html

                            2) Manoah is instructed in verse 16 to make his offering to the Lord. The reason given is that "Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD." Manoah needed this explanation because he was going to offer this to the man, but did not even regard him as an angel, let alone the Lord Himself. Verses 17 -18 remind us of the wrestling match between the angel of the Lord and Jacob back in Genesis 32, in which the angel declines to give His name, instead saying, “Why do you ask my name?” The statement given in verse 18 of Judges 13 ("it is beyond understanding") has also been rendered "it is Wonderful." This bears a striking resemblance to Isaiah 9:6, in which one of the names given to the promised incarnate divine Messiah is "Wonderful." When Manoah and his wife make an offering to the Lord, the angel of the Lord ascends in the flame. This reminds us of the sacrifice of Christ who, being God incarnate, was made a sacrifice unto the Father. The ascension of the angel of the Lord in the flame which rises from the burnt offering on the alter carries much symbolic significance and undoubtedly represents the coming sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin.

                            Source: http://apologeticsuk.blogspot.ca/201...l-of-lord.html
                            As to what the AOTL was, I don't think it was a Divine "Person".

                            I think it was an "angelic being", a "supernatural" messenger, that had the sole function of mediating God's Will to men. Not a theophany or Christophany in a "Personal" sense - so, not God made visible to men, and not the "pre-incarnate" Christ either. It has authority to act for God, because it functioned on behalf of God, without being God. Its identity with God is not personal, but functional. In "real terms" - so-called - it may have been seen in vision only; so that an uninvolved onlooker would have seen Manoah and his wife, but no angel.

                            Seems to me that what the OT calls the AOTL can usefully be regarded as an Israelite equivalent of heavenly messengers like Iris, the messenger of Zeus. She speaks to mortals with the authority of Zeus, on behalf of Zeus, and is sent by Zeus. She is not "personally" Zeus. The will and authority of Zeus is mediated through her, and by the message spoken through her. So to disobey the message spoken through her, is to disobey not her, but Zeus who sends her.

                            This way of thinking is also bound up with ideas about the sacredness of heralds, an idea which has survived, in secularised form, down to our own day. The messengers of King David were dishonoured by Hanun, the new king of Ammon, and this was for all practical purposes an assault on King David, so it led to war (and to much else - see 2 Samuel).

                            Something of this way of thinking about messengers of God survives as late as St Luke 10.16. There are Babylonian and Ugaritic mythological texts which contain similar ideas about Divine messengers. Although one must allow for the differences between the OT and extra-OT texts, the comparisons are very suggestive.

                            It is a great topic.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                              As to what the AOTL was, I don't think it was a Divine "Person".

                              I think it was an "angelic being", a "supernatural" messenger, that had the sole function of mediating God's Will to men. Not a theophany or Christophany in a "Personal" sense - so, not God made visible to men, and not the "pre-incarnate" Christ either. It has authority to act for God, because it functioned on behalf of God, without being God. Its identity with God is not personal, but functional. In "real terms" - so-called - it may have been seen in vision only; so that an uninvolved onlooker would have seen Manoah and his wife, but no angel.
                              I disagree.

                              Seems to me that what the OT calls the AOTL can usefully be regarded as an Israelite equivalent of heavenly messengers like Iris, the messenger of Zeus. She speaks to mortals with the authority of Zeus, on behalf of Zeus, and is sent by Zeus. She is not "personally" Zeus. The will and authority of Zeus is mediated through her, and by the message spoken through her. So to disobey the message spoken through her, is to disobey not her, but Zeus who sends her.
                              I guess it's a matter of who borrowed from who and/or the cultural variations that took place as the account was appropriated. This of course doesn't answer the question of if the account actually occurred, which I believe is a matter of faith.

                              This way of thinking is also bound up with ideas about the sacredness of heralds, an idea which has survived, in secularised form, down to our own day. The messengers of King David were dishonoured by Hanun, the new king of Ammon, and this was for all practical purposes an assault on King David, so it led to war (and to much else - see 2 Samuel).

                              Something of this way of thinking about messengers of God survives as late as St Luke 10.16. There are Babylonian and Ugaritic mythological texts which contain similar ideas about Divine messengers. Although one must allow for the differences between the OT and extra-OT texts, the comparisons are very suggestive.
                              Sure.

                              It is a great topic.
                              Yup.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The Old Testament records quite a few people as having seen God. The New Testament records Jesus as saying "no man has seen the Father", and John claiming "no man has seen God." Given that John cites Jesus' statement, it seems that his claim that "no man has seen God" can't be taken at face value. Ultimately, there's likely to be a meaning that isn't self evident, or perhaps, he was using "God" in the sense of "the Father."
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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