JFK murder reexamined

[Augustine2004]

[Personal note: Last week I have become quite an assassination buff. I will only do this thread on weekends, however, reading replies and posting new stuff then.]



The CIA by the time of the JFK murder had plenty of practical experience in carrying out missions involving skullduggery, for example, the 1953 overthrow of Iran's government and the installation of Shahanshah Pahlavi's regime.

Lil Pixie, stoutly supported by Rogue06, repeatedly makes a good point that any large group should not expect to be able to keep secrets for a long time; in particular, keep evidence of its skullduggery from coming into public awareness. The CIA , however, did get away with skullduggery many times. I am not going to cite literature, surely that is common knowledge. Any reader who is still skeptical of that should google around and get the history that he so sorely lacks.

And, regardless, according to some authors, many people did talk. Many times witnesses talked before any putative conspirator could stop them. In the JFK murder there were just too many witnesses. Contrary to what Lil Pixie seems to think, it could be possible to weave a plausible narrative from a careful selection of witness statements. Indeed, there's a story involving Oswald himself: According to Dallas police Capt. Will Fritz, "[Oswald] said the picture was not his, that the face was his face, but that this picture had been made by someone superimposing his face, the other part of the picture was not him at all and that he had never seen the picture before. . . . He told me that he understood photography real well, and that in time, he would be able to show that it was not his picture, and that it had been made by someone else." This comes from a series of webpages, which you should read in toto http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/T...91116-941.html

One webpage, I don't remember which, made the point that one can cover up by destroying evidence or concealing it, but also by throwing up fake evidence to make people more uncertain or undecided what is true or mislead them. The series linked above shows considerable evidence of the latter way. Later on we should examine other evidence of fakery, such as the alleged copy of the Zapruder film that was released to the public November 1964.

[DuraGizer]

Dale Gribble might have been right all along?!

[Augustine2004]

A link to the pdf file 'Reasoning about Assassinations' is wrong. This is the correct one

http://assassinationscience.com/Reas...ssinations.pdf



This webpage http://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/faulty.htm explains why the CBS news video cited by Rogue06 should be discounted.



Lil Pixie and Rogue06 should consider this passage from this webpage linked here

http://assassinationscience.com/v5n1fetzer.pdf

IMO:

[Vincent Bugliosi’s Reclaiming History] abounds with other absurdities, such as the claim, often heard from neophytes, that no one has ever confessed, as if that would be proof of no conspirary. Anyone who knows Sam and Chuck Giancana, Double Cross (1992), Noel Twyman, Bloody Treason (1997), where Noel identifies eight who have talked on a single page (p. 285), Madeleine Duncan Brown, Texas in the Morning (1997), Barr McClellan, Blood, Money & Power (2003), and Billy Sol Estes, A Texas Legend (2005), has to know better. These sources offer important evidence implicating Lyndon Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover in the assassination. Billy Sol, for example, discusses the involvement of Lyndon’s assistant, Cliff Carter, and of Malcolm “Mac” Wallace, who may have murdered as many as a dozen at LBJ’s direction. They point toward the involvement of the Joint Chiefs and elements of the CIA and the Mafia in executing the crime, a scenario that more recent revelations also confirm.

In The Zenith Secret (2006), Bradley Ayers, an Army Captain who worked for the CIA at JM/WAVE in Miami from May 1963 to December 1964, for example, offers reasons to believe that Richard Helms, William Harvey, and David Sanchez Morales were involved in the assassination of JFK. (He has also identified officials Gordon Campbell, George Joannides, and Morales in photos from the murder scene of RFK.) Today, we must include “The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt,” rollingstone.com (2007), where the long-time CIA operative points to LBJ, Cord Meyer, Harvey, Morales and others as complicit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=E9it1QpbuYk runs the same stabilized 'film' as this series of pages

http://www.assassinationresearch.com...zframe374.html (this link is to the Z374 frame page)

Notice how Kennedy rears back starting at or before frame Z225 (Stemmons freeway sign)

[Tiggy]

I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a guy who thinks there's a worldwide secret conspiracy by the entire scientific community to support AGW and the ToE should also swallow a JFK conspiracy.

Now, someone want to tell me why this OP topic is in Natural Science 301?

- T

[Catholicity]

hmm......Someone posted this in the wrong place methinks......

[Manwë Súlimo]

Or maybe it's a conspiracy by the part of the Illuminati to make Augustine look bad.

Well, you can't prove it isn't.

[T-Shirt Ninja]

Moderated By: T-Shirt Ninja

Thread moved to Political Science 301.

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[Sparko]

So I guess the CIA killed Kennedy to stop him from revealing that the Moon Landing was going to be a hoax, right?

[rogue06]

IMO:
[Vincent Bugliosi’s Reclaiming History] abounds with other absurdities

I would have stopped right there.

[Augustine2004]

I guess it shouldn't be surprising that a guy who thinks there's a worldwide secret conspiracy by the entire scientific community to support AGW and the ToE should also swallow a JFK conspiracy.

Now, someone want to tell me why this OP topic is in Natural Science 301?

- T

Tiggy, if you besmirch this thread as much as you did the global warming thread, I will ask the moderator to withdraw your posting privilege here. You have made a bad start already.



I want to tell you forensics is a scientific discipline. And there is no forum for technological stuff; technocrats have to make do with Nat Sci 301.

[Augustine2004]

• Text Edited by a Moderator: It's not pol sci only! For one thing, to judge the probability of the magic bullet theory in the Warren Commission report, one needs to know physics. The thread belongs in Nat Sci 301. •

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I am surprised that one who proclaims, 'Always strive to keep an open mind – but not so open that your brains fall out!' would already have decided against the conspiracy theory. Why, has Rogue 06 not seen the evidence that suggest Oswald was indeed set up to be a patsy?
See next post.

[Augustine2004]

All right, so you are total skeptics. If your minds are clamped shut, please do not post here.





I asked myself, what is the best start I could make here? My guess is this:



First, please look at the famous Life magazine cover photo of Oswald holding folded newspaper pages and a rifle, presumably a Carcano. http://www.life.com/news-pictures/53...bruary-21-1964

Next, look at Oswald's mug photo http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm

Y'all are such Sherlocks--NOT! Next weekend I'd have to point out an obvious discrepancy. Even then your minds are probably so welded shut that it will be all for naught.

[Augustine2004]

I hope it's OK with the moderator staff that I chain-link posts?

This is news about a book signing in 2010. Clint Hill is the guy who was the only Secret Service agent who rushed to the Kennedy car and to whom Jackie reached out from the rear seat:
http://lisamccubbin.blogspot.com/201...ith-jerry.html
Please google around for what he said about what he saw in the rear seat.

Another thing, he said he pushed Jackie back into the rear seat.

If he is not lying or making things up and those quotes are authentic, that is a point to keep in mind.

[Augustine2004]

I wasn't amazed before because I didn't realize . . . . But I am now amazed Clint Hill (see previous post) is still talking about what he saw, more than 47 years after the assassination. For one thing, why didn't I know about what he is saying, before now?

Oh, well, I remember reading a poll that said 80% of American respondents believe there was a conspiracy.



The putative conspirators may have made a decisive error in leaving an ammo clip in the claimed murder weapon. To understand what I'm talking about, look at the first clear picture that comes up in this page http://207.36.233.89/shooting/carcano/index.asp

You can see what a Carcano ammo clip looks like in the photo. The rifle can be loaded single-load, without a clip, but performance becomes extremely iffy. You really need the clip to be properly inserted in the rifle's magazine if you want decent performance. To insert the clip, insert the clip into the magazine, which is just underneath the chamber. The clip enters the rifle at the top and is pushed down into the magazine until it engages.



Here is the crucial point. Chambering the clip's last round--that is supposed to eject the clip, making it drop out of the bottom. (Different from the M-1 Garand: The Garand clip does not eject until the last round is fired.)

Yet the alleged rifle was photographed several times with a clip protruding from the bottom. That's a bit like seeing a tape deck inserted sidewise in a tape player instead of the normal way of loading the player.

This article appears to be a thorough discussion of the implications and possible 'explain-away's. I have not yet checked everything, so I can't vouch, but I mention it nevertheless http://www.assassinationresearch.com...tds.html#N_34_

So far, the hypothesis of conspiracy may be far better supported now than Oswald the lone actor.

[Augustine2004]

As far as I know, no extant movie shows the Kennedy car making the turn from Houston Ave (or Street?) into Elm Street. For example, see zapruder frame 132 then 133
http://www.assassinationresearch.com...zframe132.html

Curious is it not? Bear in mind the USFG took control of about six movies (or seven, counting the Zapruder film?)

I cannot see why. Any idea?