JFK murder reexamined

[Augustine2004]

Unsubscribe now, please, if you do nothing to refute the arguments other than make statements like those.

'Statements like those' refers to this passage: 'It appears to me that some people are not satisfied with reality and want to make life more interesting by believing in conspiracies and aliens and all sorts of other wacko theories. You must lead a very boring and secluded life, augustine. You should get out more.'

I didn't mean to include this: 'oh please! Right after claiming you are abandoning the idea of fake photos you post more conspiracy crap????' But do let me comment, 'Heh! Who's misrepresenting what, now?'

[rogue06]

As said before, there was a report that the firing pin was worn and rusty and the bolt action sorta stuck.

If not cleaned after firing a gun tends to rust. I loaned a rifle to a (former) friend so he could go hunting and got it back about two months later. He hadn't bothered to clean it and just stuck it back in the case when he got home. Both the outside and especially the inside of the barrel were heavily corroded.

OK--a Carcano (or is it Mannlicher-Carcano? confusing will use MC) in good condition can be made to fire as rapidly and ??accurately?? as the Warren Commission report claims. But witness reports have surfaced that said at least two fire sounds occurred too close together, i.e., machine fire or much more likely, two or more guns or rifles (I'm not sure what the generic term is--'gun'?)

Or possibly echoing? Dealey Plaza has been largely preserved and according to Wikipedia "is bounded on the south, east, and north sides by 100+ foot (30+ m) tall buildings."

It's possible Oswald used more than one ammo clip, but if only one clip was used, then he couldn't have fired more than--um, one bullet?

What does that have to do with whether or not Oswald had practiced with the rifle?

[Augustine2004]

I am wondering what to do now that I'm no longer doing the Oswald-rifle photos. To be sure, if someone came up with something new, I'd be interested . . . Otherwise, I'm trying to think of what to do next. I do hope you have seen the intro (here's the link, again: http://assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/ ), but people don't seem to have any questions. I think what I'll do is to work on something to verify what 60 witnesses including Jackie Kennedy said about the Kennedy car both swerving to the left and stopping based on the Zapruder film itself. Not sure when I will have something if anything. If you have any suggestion other than to get a life, go ahead.

[Augustine2004]

Or possibly echoing? Dealey Plaza has been largely preserved and according to Wikipedia "is bounded on the south, east, and north sides by 100+ foot (30+ m) tall buildings."

Three shots were fired, according to the lone-assassin hypothesis. The sound of the first shot might have echoed to the second shot or the third. I don't know, but won't there be a difference in loudness, so that witnesses would say, 'I think there was an echo right [before or after]'?

Elm Street doesn't have much in the way of buildings fronting it. I don't know, but it seems to me that echoes from Elm Street buildings can be ignored. So you have a distinctly longer path for sounds to bounce off buildings on Houston. I think the buildings on the far side of Delany Plaza can be ignored.

Actually, I just don't know. Has anyone done any experiments?

Fetzer and his gang seem to think the witness reports were not of echoes.

What does that have to do with whether or not Oswald had practiced with the rifle?

Three shots were supposed to be fired, and the rifle 'discovered' by the Dallas PD had a bullet in the chamber; the clip was empty. It's a six-shot clip, so that leaves 2 bullets that must have been fired off.

[Augustine2004]

Hey, if the first 2 bullets were fired off, what does it mean regarding the report that the pin was worn and rusty, the bolt action was balky, and the scope needed adjustments? Something is off.

[Augustine2004]

Yet to get any reply from Jim Fetzer re my idea of a way to make clear what the extant Zapruder film shows about the Kennedy car stop or slowdown and swerve. Oh, wait, maybe not possible to show the swerve, but the slowdown, probably. The blur patterns . . ..


Meanwhile I read John Costella's review of D. P. Horne's Inside the ARRB. Two points: 1) If I understand Costella correctly, the Warren Commission report appears deliberately designed to discourage study. No index, for example, even though many pages and figures. 2) Costella claims witness reports that early Zapruder version(s) show the Kennedy car turning from Houston into Elm Street; at least two witnesses were still living when he wrote that claim, he said. The zapruder version I have on my HD shows nothing of the Kennedy car in frame zap132 but ZAP! there the car is in 133, many meters into Elm already. I am still trying to think of an explanation. No link given because of unrestrained language.



The proper designation is 'Carcano.' Fernard Mannlicher did design and patent a key part of the rifle, the en bloc charger clip, but the actual shape and design of the Carcano rifle clip is taken from the German Model 1888 Commission rifle, according to the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcano. Hardly a vital point, to be sure, though.


A key point is that the Carcano imparts 4 grooves on the fired bullet. I got this from this sentence: 'Even though the bullet exhibited the same 4 grooves, right hand twist pattern as Oswald's Mannlicher-Cacano, the lands between the grooves were spaced further apart than his Carcano.' The sentences came from this webpage: http://www.ctka.net/pr1195-hewett.html

Remember the famous 'stretcher' bullet, which was found on John Connally's stretcher? When discovered, SIX grooves, at least according to the Warren Commission report.

The bullet claimed to be the 'stretcher' bullet by the House Committee on Assassinations, pictured in its report, does have four grooves. The FBI must have switched bullets. Or had it been bamboozled? If so, by whom? hat tip to Jack White


It may be in Sparko's eyes that anyone pursuing a hobby does not have a life. Well, good grief. OK, I have no life.

[Sparko]

Unsubscribe now, please, if you do nothing to refute the arguments other than make statements like those.

you wish.

You can't just kick people out of your thread because they disagree with you.

[Sparko]

Here's what Sparko originally said

I am puzzled why he scolded me for misrepresenting that. It doesn't seem to be I was badly off. Of course one must be reasonably sure the 3D model is accurate before using it to compute or create shadows.

and there is no way to be sure the 3D model is accurate especially to someone like you who seems to insist that there is a cleft chin. If the 3D artist left out the cleft you would claim it was inaccurate.

Creating 3D models isn't like what they show on hollywood CSI shows where they push a button and a computer creates a 3D wireframe model from a 2D photograph, then starts spinning the head around on the screen. Creating a 3D model is more like creating a sculpture out of clay based on the photographs. The clay sculpture would have been interpreted by the artist who did it, who looked at the photographs and made his best guesses. especially with grainy out of focus black and white photos.

[rogue06]

New high definition upgrades of the Zapruder film and other films, including a few never-before-seen images of the shooting, seems to indicate that Oswald had 11 seconds not 6 seconds as was previously thought.

Historians Claim New Research Shows Oswald Acted Alone in JFK Assassination

"And our conclusion is that he fired three shots in about 11 seconds, which is almost double, you know, the six seconds in Dallas meme that most people know when they think about the assassination: six seconds, three shots in six seconds. We say three shots in 11 seconds, which is a much easier -- for I'd say, someone of Oswald's skill -- effortless task," Holland said.


Source

© source where applicable

The NatGeo channel will air the new tests as part of an up-coming one-hour documentary called "JFK: The Lost Bullet."

[Augustine2004]

and there is no way to be sure the 3D model is accurate especially to someone like you who seems to insist that there is a cleft chin. If the 3D artist left out the cleft you would claim it was inaccurate.

So you see no cleft in the New Orleans mug shot? I wonder what others think (haven't read the rest of the new posts yet).

Creating 3D models isn't like what they show on hollywood CSI shows where they push a button and a computer creates a 3D wireframe model from a 2D photograph, then starts spinning the head around on the screen. Creating a 3D model is more like creating a sculpture out of clay based on the photographs. The clay sculpture would have been interpreted by the artist who did it, who looked at the photographs and made his best guesses. especially with grainy out of focus black and white photos.

OK so my 3D idea is not a good one.

Look, let's be done with the issue of the geniuneness of the Oswald-rifle-backyard photos. As I said before, I don't think the Kennedy murder can be linked to the photos beyond a shadow of doubt.

[Augustine2004]

New high definition upgrades of the Zapruder film and other films, including a few never-before-seen images of the shooting, seems to indicate that Oswald had 11 seconds not 6 seconds as was previously thought.

Historians Claim New Research Shows Oswald Acted Alone in JFK Assassination

"And our conclusion is that he fired three shots in about 11 seconds, which is almost double, you know, the six seconds in Dallas meme that most people know when they think about the assassination: six seconds, three shots in six seconds. We say three shots in 11 seconds, which is a much easier -- for I'd say, someone of Oswald's skill -- effortless task," Holland said.


Source

© source where applicable

The NatGeo channel will air the new tests as part of an up-coming one-hour documentary called "JFK: The Lost Bullet."

There are still the Dallas postmortem (non-official autopsy) reports claimed by Jim Fetzer and others to show JFK was hit at least 4 times. I think first in the throat (the bullet went through the car's windshield--a photo shows a hole in it). Then one in the back, which I already discussed. Then a bullet to the back of the head. Almost simultaneously, a bullet entered the right temple. Together these 2 bullets created shock waves, and maybe the last bullet plus the shock waves finally blew out what is called a defect in the right half of the back of Kennedy's skull. Clint Hill, the Secret Service agent who sprinted to the car as shown in the Zap movie, testified to getting pelted by brain parts and skull parts. One of the motorcycle cops on the left of the car testified he was hit so hard by parts like those he thought he was going to die. The Zap film does not show any sign of blood splatter after frame 313, which is the one with the red mist seeming to emerge from Kennedy's skull.

Oh, yeah, do the 'new high definition upgrades' show any blood splatter in FRONT of JFK on the car after frame 313? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I think you can bet Fetzer and his team will want to examine the upgrades very very closely. When, I have no idea. Maybe never.

ETA: 'testified'--as reported in works by Fetzer or his team.

[Augustine2004]

No amount of high-tech 'upgrading' of the Zapruder frames can show that it was possible for the driver to move his head as rapidly as shown in them. Using a slide-show program that lets you manually control the display, to and back, like Windows Photo Viewer, look at zap292 then zap293. Note the driver's head position in both frames. In 292 he is looking back. In 293 he is sorta looking ahead.

That, says Fetzer, is impossible. He suggests a simple experiment. Get a movie camera set for 1/40 second exposure, normal frame speed. Have someone sit in profile to the movie camera. Ask him to look back then snap his head to look ahead as rapidly as possible. Repeat the experiment several times.

Not sure what results you will get, but I guess no way he can do what the driver is shown to do, move his head that far in just one frame.

**********************

Costella said he combed the 18 volumes of the Warren Commission report for all the eyewitness testimonies he could find. I was scrolling through them when I came upon this passage:

Motorcycle policemen Bobby Hargis and B. J. Martin, at the
left rear of the Presidential limousine, were splattered with
brain matter and bloody water.

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presiden-
tial limousine), November 23, 1963: “As the President straightened back
up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in
the side of the head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something,
but I thought at first I might have been hit.” [Daily News report]
B. J. Martin (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential
limousine), April 3, 1964: (Mr. Ball: “You had a white helmet on?”)
Mr. Martin: “Yes.” (Mr. Ball: “Did you notice any stains on your helmet?”)
Mr. Martin: “Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed
that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I
pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side
of my helmet.” (Mr. Ball: “To give a more accurate description of the left
side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the fore-
head?”) Mr. Martin: “It was just to the left—of what would be the center
of my forehead—approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet
had spots of blood on it.” (Mr. Ball: “And were there any other spots of

There is more. If you want to go look for that in the volumes, go ahead, knock yourself out. Unfortunately, Costella didn't provide any page number, there is no index, and I understand there is either no table of contents or it is just not helpful.

[rogue06]

Good to see that you're keeping an open mind especially since the new evidence hasn't been presented yet.

[Augustine2004]

The Presidential limousine stopped or almost stopped.

Mary Moorman (on the south side of Elm Street, near the Presidential lim-
ousine at the time of the shots), November 22, 1963: “She recalls that the
President’s automobile was moving at the time she took the second pic-
ture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car
either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry.”
[FBI report: CE1426: 22H838]
Hugh Betzner, Jr. (on south side of Elm Street, running from the corner of
Houston to try to keep up with the Presidential limousine in order to take
more photographs), November 22, 1963: “I looked down the street and I
could see the President’s car and another one and they looked like the
cars were stopped.” [Later:] “I walked down toward where the President’s
car had stopped. I saw a Police Officer and some men in plain clothes. I
don’t know who they were. These Police Officers and the men in plain
clothes were digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a bul-
let.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 24H200]
Jean Hill (on the south side of Elm Street, near the Presidential limousine
at the time of the shots), November 22, 1963: “There was an instant
pause between the first two shots and the motor cade [sic] seemingly
halted for an instant and three or four more shots rang out ….” [Sheriff’s
Department affidavit: 24H212]

Several more testimonies. Perhaps we'll make further acquaintance with Mary Moorman later. An actress played her in a movie, I think Oliver Stone's JFK. She was the person outside the car closest to JFK when he got the shot in his right temple. She actually stood in Elm Street itself when she took that famous photograph. Analysis of it shows that she had to have stood in the street about where she said she took the photo. Any other place would have made subtle but indisputable differences, or so I understand.

[Augustine2004]

Good to see that you're keeping an open mind especially since the new evidence hasn't been presented yet.

Hmmm, seems as though you are discounting all those eyewitness testimonies compiled in the Warren Commission reports, or you just don't understand the significance. Could bullets shot from high and to the rear and on the right of JFK's head cause it to explode in such a way that people on the left and to the rear got splattered with some of the ejecta?