The 144 THOUSAND

[Chappie]

Daniel 17;14>Chappie,

I certainly don't want to be "out of order" with the site, so if we need to do this on another "topic" forum, or other means (private message, whatever), I have no problem with that.

Meanwhile I will leave you with some things, and we'll see if we need to "move" to another neighborhood.

I certainly don't know where you "stand", and I am certain you are not going to just "take my word for...IT...", but if you consider these things, I am confindent that you will appreciate the "concepts".

In Rev. 7:1-8, this is where we get our clearest picture of the 144, who they are (it's always best to start with the things that are easily agreeable) IF...they are jews (trick question), why does Paul clearly inform us that there are neither "...jews nor greeks, male nor female, free nor bond, but we are all "one" in Christ? No distinction among/between believers, so does this "jewish" distinction make them jewish after the flesh, but...NOT...jewish according to conversion? IF...not of the conversion, why would God "seal" non-believers?

The question for you is: WHY ARE THEY "SEALED"? I hate to be dogmatic, but while there are many answers, there is only "one" that is...BEST(easy answer, don't overthink it)!

Knowing that "chapter and verse" are incorporated...FOR OUR BENEFIT...what do we see in the preceeding chapter (6)? Though the vision is outlined with these means, there isn't a "break" that occurs just because we get to another chapter. It all "flows" from one point/event to another.

In 6:9-11 - who are these? IF...they are "immortals" (and I hold to them being eternal souls), how are they "held under" an altar, and if they are (which they are), what could that "altar" be, that it could hold eternal beings?

To jump over to Chap. 14:1-5, we see "them" again, and do you notice their description (4), "...not defiled with women, for they are virgins...". Can you see any correlation between that description and what Paul declares in II Cor. 11:2?

Lastly, do you have any thought on why only "they" can sing the song? Or what the song is?

I have probably made this far more difficult than it needs to be, I'm sorry about that. I was just attempting to get you to look at some of these things differently, rather than just try to "dump" them into your head.

May the gracious Lord bless you,

Waiting for your response,

[Daniel7:14]

Chappie,

I am here!

[Daniel7:14]

Here's some possible "answers" (remember, I type slooooooow):

What if you gave some thought to this 144...NOT...being "future tense", but rather the vision would show "all" that come to redemption? Could you consider them to be O.T. saints? Of course, in the O.T., the only "believers" were jews. Whether natural born, or, proselytes, One nation of believers, all jews.

So, if they were jews...AND...faithful believers, then they would be the true jew, as described in the N.T. by Paul, through the conversion of the heart. That is...WHY...they are seen as jews, without contradicting the N.T. definition. They are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, as Isaiah said, "...though Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved.." I had this concept at one time of "sand that makes up the beach", but he said "of the sea", meaning below the surface of the water as well.

We see them "held" under the...ALTAR...eternal souls captivated by an "altar". You know the account in Luke 16, of the "portion" for Lazarus, he was taken into the bosom of Abraham. A place of comfort and rest. Even as you see the same example with Samuel and the witch at Endor. The remark he makes is, "...why have you disquieted me...?" Disturbed from his "rest", his comfort.

We understand that the believer went into a place of rest, a sense of a "waiting" place. After all that is what they were told to do, "...wait until..."! What is the signifigance of them being "under" the altar? Ever hear someone say, "...If you're going to live in my house, you're going to live "under" my rules"? It represents an "authority, or dominion". In this regard: their sin sacrifices were brought to the "altar", as commanded by God, to remain in covenant relationship with him. The blood was poured out for atonement, as that type and shadow of the work of Christ. The altar would be the "means" whereby they were found faithful in obedience.

Now, Paul comes along in the N.T. and clearly declares that, "...absent from the body, is present with the Lord...". We know that to be Post-Calvary. This is caused by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Life. "...And grieve not the Holy Spirit, whereby you are..."SEALED...until the day of redemption".

So our eternal souls, gain entrance into the heavenly kingdom, by and through the Holy Spirit, indwelling in us. Look again at Lazarus, he is "carried" by the angels into the bosom. Pre-Calvary, there is no "in-dwelling" and believers are powerless, on their own, to do anything, but be captive to the "grave" (God's ordained punishment). So, we see the example of the O.T. believers, carried, into a "holding place", having to wait upon....CHRIST BEING THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD. That's why they were given white robes (to show their faithfulness) and yet told to....WAIT.

Is it alright to say at this point, ...THEY ARE NOT SOME FUTURE TENSE "JEWS", CONTRARY TO THE DEFINITION GIVEN BY PAUL. It says nothing of them being "evangelists", going out into the world, to spread the Gospel message!

(CONT)

[Chappie]

Hi Daniel;
I've been reevaluating a few things since I read your post. Here are my thoughts that existed before I read your posts. I believe that the 144,000 thousand are indeed Jews that were chosen before the advent of Christ and the gospel. I see them as tribulation priests {The Church has been removed} that represent the restoration of the priesthood of the nation of Israel. I see the church as having been raptured, and the priesthood of Israel being restored... Grafted back in so to say...

They are sealed against the deception, calamity, and destruction of the great tribulation so as to not be prohibited from spreading the Gospel of Christ during this difficult time... I believe that they will do the work of Christ during the 1000 years when Satan will be released to deceive the earth once again...

Who are those that are under the alter, not quite sure where the alter fits in but I believe those that are arrayed in white are those that were slaughtered for the witnessing of the gospel as well as those chose before the advent of Christ...

When I get my thoughts better organized, I will present my conclusions with scriptural implications/inspirations.

Just wanted to give you a snapshot of how I have reconciled these matters heretofore

[Daniel7:14]

If you look at Joshua, you will see that, those that "lived" through the wandering (a generation of believers as oppossed to the non-believers that perished), you will see that they had not been "circumcised, 5:2, 7. A picture for the "eternal realm"? Do we know of the songs that declare of the river Jordan? To mean the passing from this life to the next? Watch! Once the Ark (Christ) crosses over, the "time" of Passover (time of his crucifixion), and joins them,...........THEN...........they are circumcised! Paul says the circumcision , is the circumcision of the heart, not made with hands. The gift of the Holy Spirit?

So we see that the 144, are "sealed", for one reason, and one reason...ONLY! Prior to that "point", they had yet to be.............SEALED..................were without the "gift" of the Spirit of Life!

Prior to the crucifixion of Christ, his death, burial and resurrection, the bosom of Abraham "held" all those that were counted as being faithful. If you look at Luke 4:18,"...to set the captive free", or Eph. 4:8, "...when he ascended up on high, he led "captivity", captive..."

Once Christ "joined" Israel, on the other side of the Jordan,through death on the cross, Israel was then able to partake of the sacrificial Lamb, and receive the Holy Spirit, which is no different than us. This would lead to the account given in Matt. 27, ...THE GRAVES...being "opened". Of course it says, "...arose...AFTER...his resurrection". Christ would be the "firstborn" and Israel would be the "firstfruits"! (I know you see that reference in chap. 14)

Can we "observe" for just a moment?

IF..... they are "those" in chap. 6, under the alter,........we see them in a state of "preservation", waiting (provision of Gods promise).
IF......they are "those" in chap. 7, being "sealed".........we see them in a state of "empowerment" (power of Christ)
LASTLY..........
IF.......we see them in chap. 14, on Mount Zion, signing the "song"................we see them in the...FULLNESS...of the promise of redemption. Redeemed in the presence of God, eternally.

So what is the "song" they sing, and why are they the only ones who can sing it? Same answer for both questions: They were redeemed out from "under the law". The provision that God had made to Abraham, his promise to those who would be faithful. Even though, "...by the deeds of the law, NO FLESH...would be saved (Rm. 3), it would be the following of the "type and shadow", that which pointed to Christ, that God would accept....UNTIL...the time for the promise.

FAITHFUL GOD

There are still more details, but think about these things, I'm here for "clarification", because I know I struggle to express it clearly.

Bless

Dan

[Daniel7:14]

I guess I "twisted" the Law with the promise, but the promise led to the Law, even as Abraham led to Moses.

Sorry

[Daniel7:14]

Our posts have been like "passing ships in the night". The wonders of the electonic age.

I wouldn't want say anything that would offend you, yet I will say some things to "get your attention".

In looking at these 144 to be "future", I have to speak of.........THE INSUFFICIENCY OF THE CROSS.......!!!!!!!!!!! Again, not to offend........................................

Look at the "history" of our plan of salvation, from the beginning, to Christ, up until this very moment. There has...NEVER...been a "situation" that the power of the.....CROSS......has not been sufficient to overcome. NEVER! As we look at the declaration of God to, "...come up, and sit on my right hand...", we know that...ALL POWER...has been given into his hands.

THAT IS.....ALL POWER......AS IN,..... ALL POWER! Exalted above the heavens and given a "name" higher than any name.

So how is it that the Power of the Cross, is insufficient to keep "those" who are going to go through this "tribualtion", without them being "sealed"? IF..............it takes this "sealing" for these future 144, in order to stand, how can we expect any of the "future" converts to stand, when there is no record of them being "sealed" as in the case of the 144? So the Gospel message of the 144 is hopeless, useless, in that none other can "stand", and what would be the purpose, as then...ALL OTHERS...would be lost! The Gsopel message leads to redemption, but certainly not in this case.

Bless you Chappie,

Dan

[Chappie]

THAT IS.....ALL POWER......AS IN,..... ALL POWER! Exalted above the heavens and given a "name" higher than any name.

So how is it that the Power of the Cross, is insufficient to keep "those" who are going to go through this "tribualtion", without them being "sealed"? IF..............it takes this "sealing" for these future 144, in order to stand, how can we expect any of the "future" converts to stand, when there is no record of them being "sealed" as in the case of the 144? So the Gospel message of the 144 is hopeless, useless, in that none other can "stand", and what would be the purpose, as then...ALL OTHERS...would be lost! The Gospel message leads to redemption, but certainly not in this case.

Bless you Chappie,

Dan

To you Daniel, what is the power of the cross?

Why does God feel the need to seal the 144,000? Why do navy seals need more training than the rest of the navy? The 144,000 will be proclaiming the things of Christ during one of the most difficult times in human history. Satan has finally been kicked out or heaven and bound to the earth, and he is angry.

The power of the gospel still has the power to convert, but those proclaiming that Gospel will come under a severe and sustained attack from the powers of darkness. The church has been removed as an organized force against evil, ministry has been reduced from what it was under the church to the 144,000 anointed (Sealed) by God as millennial priests...

[RBerman]

Seems to me that the 144,000 symbolize Jewish believers who are safe from God's judgment, as opposed to the Gentile believers (also safe from God's judgment) who are discussed immediately afterward.

[Chappie]

Seems to me that the 144,000 symbolize Jewish believers who are safe from God's judgment, as opposed to the Gentile believers (also safe from God's judgment) who are discussed immediately afterward.

What makes you think that the passage is symbolic of something other than what is actually stated. Why does it seem that way to you?

Does the bible ever just say what it means, and mean what it says?

[RBerman]

What makes you think that the passage is symbolic of something other than what is actually stated. Why does it seem that way to you? Does the bible ever just say what it means, and mean what it says?

Yes. But John's Apocalypse is a vision full of dragons, frog spirits, swords coming from mouths, angels with keys and bowls, and so on. Lampstands are churches. Surely that's symbolic; the text says so.

[Daniel7:14]

I don't know if I am able to convey to you the truth of the matter. I apologize for the "directness" of my comment, but......IF........you really desire to KNOW the 144, their purpose, along with the time frame in which they are "seen".....YOU MUST......be willing to consider what the scripture......DOES say......NOT....what it DOESN'T say.

There is.......ALWAYS.........the "stigma" of,........... uh-oh, another "nutcase", or "who do they think they are", and so on.

I am a believer in Jesus Christ, having accepted him as Lord and Savior. As is clearly declared in scripture, earthly men cannot understand the Word, for it is Spiritual, and it is Spiritually discerned. The Word is revealed through and by the Holy Spirit. Christ stated that, "...when the Spirit of Truth is come............He will testify of.....ME!

AS we are informed immediately,".........THIS......IS......THE ......REVELATION.......OF...........JESUS CHRIST........."
Then why shouldn't we attempt to mold our views around the concepts that picture Christ? IF....you read ANY autobiography, you will see that what is contained therein......concerns the "subject person". Isn't that what Revelation is? Isn't it about Christ? Doesn't it depict from ".....beginning to end...."? Doesn't he clearly declare, "....I am the Alpha and Omega"?

I have seen many of your posts, and found your positions continually based upon scripture. So, I will ask no more of you other than to consider scripture for determining what "is or isn't".

Frst, it is necessarry that you detach from the vision of the 144, all "concepts" and "alleged scenarios" that are...NOT...specifically contained in the verses. The most recent comment I have heard regarding "text" is: If you take the "text" out of the "context", you are simply left with "...con..."! I find that to be agreeable.

SO HERE WE GO:

Please reconcile for me how Paul repeatedly declares, "...there is neither greek, nor jew....all are one in Christ". Even more emphatic, Paul clearly indicates that, "....I counted it...ALL...as DUNG...that I might...GAIN...Christ". He spoke of an impressive list of "jewish" considerations that he was debunking. To be even clearer (NOT that I think you need additional clarification, but....) Paul states that Abraham had "one" Son, and that Son was Christ. Therefore...IF...we are in Christ, we are Abraham's children....and heirs according to the Promise.

WHO then is the JEW: Those that are "believers", beginning with Abel. Yet, if we see those being "sealed" and they are declared to be jews, then they are not converts to Christ. Paul says, those converted to Christ are neither, "jew nor greek...", either Paul is wrong, or the concept is wrong. So according to the pre-millenial" concept, God is "sealing" non-believers! You can't have it both ways, they can't be jews, and have taken on Christ, Paul makes that perfectly clear. So why would God "seal" sinners?

OH WAIT......there is something else that is clearly taught in the New Testament, and that is: The believer is "sealed" by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, "...grieve not the Holy Spirit, whereby you are "sealed" unto the day of redemption". We are also "taught" that we receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost........AFTER........we have taken on Christ as our Lord and Savior. The blood of Christ washes our sins away and the Holy Spirit comes and indwells in a temple that is now worthy of His presence. So according to that "pre-mill" understanding, these "jews", though unrepentant, unclean, are being "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit? OUCH!

So what is necessary, is to sort through some of those concepts by...going back to the verses!

FIRST....the bible does teach that there are "jews", and Paul affirms that, being one himself. However, the references that are made as to "who is, or isn't", is in....DIRECT...consideration of...PRE-CHRIST....OR....POST CHRIST. We clearly see those who are "jews" as they follow the provisions given to Abraham...Pre-Christ..., even as we see those who are "jews" according to the provisions outlined through the sacrifice of Christ...Post-Christ!

NOW.............you can determine who "those" jews are! By being "jews"...AFTER...the...FLESH....(note is made of....12 tribes)....."they" are....PRE-CHRIST.....eternal beings, NOT some future tense "jews". Even as I offered earlier that the position of these being future tense jews,..................... DECLARES THE INSUFFICIENCY OF THE CROSS.....NO, NO, NO, NO, once again, you cannot have it both ways. EITHER THE CROSS IS SUFFICIENT FOR ALL THAT THE WORLD BRINGS AGAINST THE BELIEVER...........OR IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

IF THESE ARE SOME FUTURE TENSE JEWS, WHO ARE BEING SEALED DUE TO FUTURE PERSECUTIONS, OR TRIALS, OR TRIBULATIONS OR CONDITIONS OF THE WORLD....................................THEN THE CROSS IS INSUFFICIENT FOR THEM AND THE SITUATIONS THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really, really need to rethink that position. Oh, and by the way, where is those verses (8), does it say that these "jews" who are sealed are.....evangelists......going out into the world.....declaring the Gospel.......during the "great tribulation"? HMMMMMMM?

I will close at this point............as I mentioned earlier,.........IF..........you desire to know the truth, you can find it, but you must "disconnect" yourself from some "concepts", otherwise......it ain't never gonna happen

Bless,

Dan.

[Daniel7:14]

Sorry Chappie, I didn't mean to ignore your questions. The preaching of the cross to them that perish, is foolishness, but to us which are saved, it is the........POWER OF GOD!

There is.........ONLY ONE REASON...........why these "jews" are "sealed". Can I ask you here a question: HOW MANY TIMES DOES THE BELIEVER NEED TO BE SEALED? If you said "once", bingo, you are correct! Where does it say that these "jews" had been "sealed" previously? It doesn't..................BECAUSE.............they weren't........AND......THEY NEEDED TO BE SEALED! The "need" is this: "...If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies...by his Spirit that dwells in you", Rm. 8:11.

How do you think the O.T. saints , Mat. 27, were raised from the dead? They had died and went into the graves, but arose after him, even though they had died.......WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST!! The baptism of the Holy Ghost would come on the day of Pentecost, so how, when and where did the O.T. saints receive the baptism. Well, if they were in the graves, which they were, at that point they obiously...DID NOT...have the indwelling of the Spirit!

So, if they were in a "holding place", "waiting" until the completion of the work of Christ,in Abraham's bosom, isn't this the picture that we age given of them? Well look at chap. 6, who do you think thiese are? One and the same! First we see "them" as being...PRESERVED...now in chap 7, we see "them" being ...EMPOWERED!

Having been "quickened" (made alive), WHEN they received the baptism, the graves could...NO LONGER...hold them!

Just like it won't hold you or I, when we pass from this life,...NOR...at the return of Christ when we will be reunited with our bodies. That's why Paul clearly tells us, "...absent from the body, present with the Lord". That couldn't apply to the O.T. saints, pre-Christ, otherwise Christ would not have been the FIRST to rise from the dead!

You do believe in a physical resurrection, yes? And you do believe that, "...The Spirit of Life, in Christ Jesus, has made me free from the Law of sin and death". So do I! But prior to Christ, the Law of sin and death, held "them" in the graves.

What do you think is the signifigance of the four angels holding back the "wind"? Do you see in the Garden, God "breathing" the breath of Life in the nostrils of Adam? What about Ezekiel 37, the valley of dry bones, "...prophesy to the...WIND"? Or even, "...there came from heaven the sound of a mighty, rushing.....WIND"? IF...you see the similarities, you are correct once again!

It is the "picture" just prior to the event of the Holy Spirit being "poured out" upon all manking (Joel, Acts 2), but first God would raise the O.T. saints, through and by this same Holy Spirit.

Turn to Joshua, chap 5 and see that in the "wilderness" the children, who crossed over into the promised land,...HAD NOT BEEN "SEALED"........OH, I MEAN "CIRCUMCISED". Wait, doesn't Paul equate "circumcision" with the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Does the "crossing over Jordan" bear any spiritual signifigance? Don't our hymnals suggest it? Oh, wait, doesn't God promises include: "...a land flowing with milk and honey".

It is the "one and same" picture from the beginning, of God redeeming his creation back to him, and how he would accomplish it.

Bless,

Dan

[Chappie]

Yes. But John's Apocalypse is a vision full of dragons, frog spirits, swords coming from mouths, angels with keys and bowls, and so on. Lampstands are churches. Surely that's symbolic; the text says so.

When the text says symbolic, run with it. When symbolism is not contextually suggested, if it don't fit. Don't force it for personal reasons...

[RBerman]

When the text says symbolic, run with it. When symbolism is not contextually suggested, if it don't fit. Don't force it for personal reasons...

Tell me about the beast from the sea or the beast from the land, or the dragon.