Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Malina and Pilch on Religious Visions
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Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, I know you've made a lame attempt at justifying your waving away other evidence. Pseudo-scholarly handwaving is still handwaving.Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-20-2017, 01:53 PM.
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostAh, but I'm not "hand waving" it away. I've used it in my analysis to show the growth of the legend over time. Oh, and it's pretty much standard methodology in historiography to prefer firsthand testimony. Which historians do you know of that prefer secondhand or worse unverified hearsay as opposed to a first person account? That's ludicrous!Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, your impugning of the evidence is ludicrous.
If you were being consistent, you'd have to throw out nearly all of recorded history
- but you're not; you just have an anti-Christian axe to grind.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNone of the evidence is eyewitness reportage
and none is recorded until many decades after the event
and probably highly embellished,
given that the goal was to glorify Jesus and win converts.
Nonsense. Nearly all of recorded history is supported by multiple pieces of evidence...including artefacts and the like, multiple sources of evidence and independent contemporary sources.
But, there are no artefacts and the only contemporary source for the Jesus story is Paul.
And even he didn’t meet Jesus personally, merely in a vision which is the point of the argument.
No more than you have a pro-Christian axe to grind, surely
I think I've said enough on this subject, here and elsewhere. I'll try to stick to the main topic of the thread from this point.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, your impugning of the evidence is ludicrous. If you were being consistent, you'd have to throw out nearly all of recorded history - but you're not; you just have an anti-Christian axe to grind.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
Allegedly.
Wrong. The gospels were written for believers, not for purposes of evangelization.
Clearly, you are not a historian.
Allegedly.
Those are not mutually exclusive.
Of course I have a pro-Christian axe to grind. However, he's pretending to be neutral on the whole thing, which nobody's buying.
I think I've said enough on this subject, here and elsewhere. I'll try to stick to the main topic of the thread from this point.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostI'm not saying Paul's information comes entirely from revelation, I'm saying he supplemented what he learned from other Christians with revelations of his own and those from his churches...
Paul was trained as a Pharisee, meaning he was intimately familiar with the Old Testament, including its numerous messianic prophecies. He was also almost certainly familiar with the Christian message and the claims of a resurrected Messiah but obviously rejected it. Then he had his Damascus Road experience which he surely recognized as an encounter with the divine, and in the days that followed, while he was struck blind, he turned all of his knowledge of scripture to reconciling what he had experienced on the road and came to the conclusion that he had witnessed the resurrected Jesus as foretold by scripture. Since scripture comes from God, and since it took a divine kick in the pants to get him to recognize the truth, he could say without artiface or pretence that his knowledge of Christian theology came from God.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat sounds like a modern argument, JEPD style. Off-hand, it seems unlikely.
I think I have Pilch & Malina's commentary on Revelation lying about unread. I should dig it up and take a crack at it (I'm currently in the midst of Andrew of Caesaria's commentary on the book - a translation by Eugenia Constantinou is available on academia.edu).Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI've often wondered about the nature of Paul's revelations. This is what makes the most sense to me:
Paul was trained as a Pharisee, meaning he was intimately familiar with the Old Testament, including its numerous messianic prophecies. He was also almost certainly familiar with the Christian message and the claims of a resurrected Messiah but obviously rejected it. Then he had his Damascus Road experience which he surely recognized as an encounter with the divine, and in the days that followed, while he was struck blind, he turned all of his knowledge of scripture to reconciling what he had experienced on the road and came to the conclusion that he had witnessed the resurrected Jesus as foretold by scripture. Since scripture comes from God, and since it took a divine kick in the pants to get him to recognize the truth, he could say without artiface or pretence that his knowledge of Christian theology came from God.
As to the reference to the Last Supper which Paul "received" from the Lord in 1 Cor 11, again the scholars I've read don't believe Paul necessarily had a vision of the Last Supper. That's not what he's saying. Rather, Paul is reciting a tradition that goes back to the early Christian community in Jerusalem. What Paul received from the Lord is the guarantee on the accuracy and authority of the tradition, since, apparently, the Corinthian church was doing it wrong.Last edited by Adrift; 08-02-2017, 03:27 PM.
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