Defining Total Depravity - Romans 8

[Rdr. Arsenios]

We have two ways to look at this. You say that this verse has Paul describing an unregenerate man's inability to uphold the law. I read it as Paul describing the conflict between his mind and his flesh as a believer.

Paul is speaking to those knowing the Law AS IF he is one of them, and he is critiquing the Law...
Paul himself is FREE FROM the Law - You do know that, do you not?
But there are Jews, pious Jews, who are still KEEPING the Law, who are Christians... You know this, do you not?
And Paul is addressing them, as "those KNOWING the Law"...
And these wish to make Christians subject first to the Law of the Jews in order that they become Christians...
THIS, you see, is the CONTEXT of this discussion...

Now ALL involved in this discussion are REGENERATE - They have ALL been Baptized... They are ALL in Christ...

But SOME think that you have to be circumcized to become a follower of Christ, and follow the ritual ordinances of the Jews...

Paul is ADDRESSING these, the ones KNOWING the Law... Understood? He is showing them that they are wrong...

He is NOT discussing your Calvinist agenda AT ALL... He is not discussing regenerate vs un-regenerate...

He is instead discussing the shortcomings of the Law that Christ fulfilled...

And how by our death [in Baptism into Christ's death] we are no longer alive in the flesh, and so are no longer subject to the Law at all, because the Law only applies to those alive in the flesh...

This is why he is taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace, and speaks in the first person, and they are all knowers of the Law, and practicing the Law, and think that they are still under the Law, when they are not... And they want to make all others to be also under the Law... And in the first person he speaks AS IF under the Law, and shows them that the Law was only an intermediate step in God's plan, which is now fulfilled in Christ Jesus... He is struggling to free them from their mistaken understanding of the Law as being needed now when in Christ...

Why is this so hard to understand?...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

...
Now ALL involved in this discussion are REGENERATE - They have ALL been Baptized... They are ALL in Christ...

He is not discussing regenerate vs un-regenerate...

Arsenios sides with me and against Phat8594. Actually, not really, but it looks good.

This is why he is taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace, and speaks in the first person, and they are all knowers of the Law, and practicing the Law, and think that they are still under the Law, when they are not... And they want to make all others to be also under the Law... And in the first person he speaks AS IF under the Law, and shows them that the Law was only an intermediate step in God's plan, which is now fulfilled in Christ Jesus... He is struggling to free them from their mistaken understanding of the Law as being needed now when in Christ...

Why is this so hard to understand?...

It is not hard to understand what you are saying. It is hard to reconcile that which you say with that which Paul writes. You don't help us in this respect by walking us through the Scriptures to make your point. Maybe you can't do that so you are basically putting forth what you want to believe.

Now, if it is true that Paul is "taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace," then Paul is taking them back to that time when they were unregenerate and depending on the law for their salvation. If that is the correct way to read Chap 7, then you need to explain how Paul can say, in v22, "For I delight in the law of God"? If in v 14-23 you want us to understand that Paul is speaking of unregenerate men, then you need to explain how Paul can say, "For I delight in the law of God" given that Paul will say a few verses later that "they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Unregenerate men do not delight in the law of God.

You express an opinion. Reconcile your opinion with the Scriptures, and we can take it seriously.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Arsenios sides with me and against Phat8594. Actually, not really, but it looks good.

Almost spilled my coffee!

It is not hard to understand what you are saying.

There... ISAGOD!!

I thought I was going to have to take up dentistry!

It is hard to reconcile that which you say with that which Paul writes.

Well, let's take a look!

You don't help us in this respect by walking us through the Scriptures to make your point.

Would it help if I walked you through "War and Peace"???

Maybe you can't do that so you are basically putting forth what you want to believe.

I only put forth what the Church teaches... There was a genuine crisis in the Faith in the first century, and it is of this that Paul is writing. Christ is a Jew, come forth out of Judah, and the Jews see Him as a Jew, and if you want to believe in Christ, YOU have to become a Jew too... This is a false understanding, for Christ is not entered through the Law, even though He came OUT OF the Law... He is entered through self denial, the taking up of one's cross daily, and following Him, being Baptized in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit... iow Through FAITH... Not the Law... And this places the person who enters Christ (in purification of the heart by Baptism into His death) under Grace, which is the fulfillment of the Law... We are still under the Law of God, but not under the Ritual Laws of the Jews... We are obedient to the Commandments of Christ... We follow Him in Love and obedience, even unto death... That is what it means to be a Christian... To worship Christ as God, to become one with Him in obedience to Him, and to walk in His Grace which ONLY He can provide, for that Grace is the Grace of God alone, and not of ANY created thing...

Now, if it is true that Paul is "taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace," then Paul is taking them back to that time when they were unregenerate and depending on the law for their salvation.

Indeed he is, and himself as well... Himself becoming AS IF under the Law, to save those "under the Law" in Christ...

If that is the correct way to read Chap 7, then you need to explain how Paul can say, in v22, "For I delight in the law of God"?

Did not unregenerate David delight in the Law of God?
Did not the unregenerate Cornelius' prayers come before the Throne of the Most High God?
Did God not HEAR the prayers of the unregenerate Jews before Christ?
Is not Paul writing about his and the Romans 'knowing the Law' time before they knew Christ?
Is there any difference between them and their unregenerate [or not-yet-regenerate] compatriots under the Law?

If in v 14-23 you want us to understand that Paul is speaking of unregenerate men, then you need to explain how Paul can say, "For I delight in the law of God" given that Paul will say a few verses later that "they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Unregenerate men do not delight in the law of God.

Unregenerate men can and do and did indeed delight in the Law of God - They are called JEWS... And THAT is the problem here... The Law is HOLY and JUST, yet it cannot save... Only Christ can save... The LAW is NOT the path for the Gentiles, you see... For the Jews, yes, but for the Gentiles, no... You see, actually regenerate men delight in Christ... ONLY unregenerate men can delight in the Law... For Christians, the Law no longer applies to them, for they are DEAD to the law, for they have been Baptized into Christ's DEATH, and are thereby no longer UNDER the Law...

You express an opinion. Reconcile your opinion with the Scriptures, and we can take it seriously.

My Brother, may God continue to bless you even more than He so abundantly has already blessed you...

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

Would it help if I walked you through "War and Peace"???

Only you would think that "War and Peace" could contribute to this discussion. That could explain some of your comments.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Only you would think that "War and Peace" could contribute to this discussion.

Did I misread your words? Were you not complaining that I was walking you through the Scriptures? The question was directed to that end, for if not the Scriptures, then WHAT BOOK would YOU prefer? War and Peace? It was just a little joke, you see...

Have you no sense of humor?

That could explain some of your comments.

Thank-you for answering my question about humor...

Have you ever told a joke?

Do you smile?

Arsenios

[rhutchin]

Now, if it is true that Paul is "taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace," then Paul is taking them back to that time when they were unregenerate and depending on the law for their salvation.

Indeed he is, and himself as well... Himself becoming AS IF under the Law, to save those "under the Law" in Christ...

OK. Show us where, in chap 7, this transition takes place and how you know that a transition takes place. Are you able to identify a verse(s) where you think this occurs and explain why you think a transition occurs?

If that is the correct way to read Chap 7, then you need to explain how Paul can say, in v22, "For I delight in the law of God"?

Did not unregenerate David delight in the Law of God?
Did not the unregenerate Cornelius' prayers come before the Throne of the Most High God?
Did God not HEAR the prayers of the unregenerate Jews before Christ?
Is not Paul writing about his and the Romans 'knowing the Law' time before they knew Christ?

No, in each case. At least, you present no Scripture to suggest that they are.

Is there any difference between them and their unregenerate [or not-yet-regenerate] compatriots under the Law?

Yes. They are regenerate and their "unregenerate [or not-yet-regenerate] compatriots" are not. Big difference.

If in v 14-23 you want us to understand that Paul is speaking of unregenerate men, then you need to explain how Paul can say, "For I delight in the law of God" given that Paul will say a few verses later that "they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Unregenerate men do not delight in the law of God.

Unregenerate men can and do and did indeed delight in the Law of God - They are called JEWS... And THAT is the problem here... The Law is HOLY and JUST, yet it cannot save... Only Christ can save... The LAW is NOT the path for the Gentiles, you see... For the Jews, yes, but for the Gentiles, no... You see, actually regenerate men delight in Christ... ONLY unregenerate men can delight in the Law... For Christians, the Law no longer applies to them, for they are DEAD to the law, for they have been Baptized into Christ's DEATH, and are thereby no longer UNDER the Law...

OK. You have your opinion. I have mine.

I only put forth what the Church teaches...

Reading the Scriptures would be another avenue to take.

[rhutchin]

Did I misread your words? Were you not complaining that I was walking you through the Scriptures?

You NEVER walk anyone through the Scriptures. Citing Scripture is just not something you do.

So, yes, you did not get the point.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Did I misread your words? Were you not complaining that I was walking you through the Scriptures?

You NEVER walk anyone through the Scriptures. Citing Scripture is just not something you do.

Well then, you simply made a typo... Your complaint was that I WAS INDEED walking you through the Scriptures...

Here are your exact words: "You don't help us in this respect by walking us through the Scriptures to make your point."***

So, yes, you did not get the point.

Am I not the one who not only quotes Scripture, but actually takes you into the Greek to dig out an exact exegetical interpretation?

Arsenios

***PS - Your comment can be read both ways - I took it as meaning that my walking you through the Scriptures did not help you... You intended it to mean that my NOT walking you through the Scriptures did not help you... eg that by not walking you through I was not helping...
Is THAT it?
See how things can go?
So please forgive me for being thick in the skull...

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Now, if it is true that Paul is "taking them back to when they were under the Law, and not under Grace," then Paul is taking them back to that time when they were unregenerate and depending on the law for their salvation.

Indeed he is, and himself as well... Himself becoming AS IF under the Law, to save those "under the Law" in Christ...

OK. Show us where, in chap 7, this transition takes place and how you know that a transition takes place. Are you able to identify a verse(s) where you think this occurs and explain why you think a transition occurs?

I already did show you the place: 7:1 "For I am speaking to them knowing the Law." And I observed, which you apparently missed, that by this clause being at the beginning of Chap 7, it applies to ALL of Chap. 7... It is a governing clause... There is NO point in Chap 7 in which Paul is NOT speaking to those knowing the Law... And these are ALL Christian Jews, yes?

So from this, I took what Paul later explained he does, in Corinthians, where he tells us that to those who are Jews, he becomes AS IF he were a Jew, and TO those UNDER THE LAW, he becomes AS IF he were under the Law... Because here his first sentence has "I am speaking TO THOSE UNDER THE LAW" [eg "to them knowing the Law" - Which means that as Christians they are continuing their practice of the Law, yes?]

I am simply allowing Paul to explain Paul, for He is no longer a Jew, nor is he knowing the Law, because he is an Apostle of Christ, and is DEAD to the Law, because he HAS mortified his fleshy members, and is one with Christ... Indeed, he even reports KEEPING his flesh under subjugation, remember?

No, in each case. At least, you present no Scripture to suggest that they are.

David existed before the incarnation of Christ - So he had no way of being IN CHRIST who had not yet become man...
Cornelius was not a Christian until the Holy Spirit descended upon Him and he was granted by Peter the Laver of Regeneration

Scripture Verse:

Act 10:44-48
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Since Cornelius was among these first of the Gentiles to be Baptized by Peter, we must conclude that he was the first to become a Christian, because "NO man could forbid him the water of baptism..."

And are you arguing that the Jews before Christ WERE regenerate??? Or that they were NOT regenerate?

Was DAVID, the Psalmist, hundreds of years before Christ, regenerate? Or NOT regenerate?

If you think he WAS regenerate, then Christ had no reason to incarnate...
And if NOT, then he reports in the Psalms delighting in the Law of God...



I only put forth what the Church teaches...

Reading the Scriptures would be another avenue to take.
*

The Church WROTE and TEACHES Holy Scripture...

It is, after all, the (writing) Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

And we do read what we have written, each and every day of each and every year...

Indeed, the entire Psalter is prayed each week...

Psalm 50(51) is prayed several times each day...

In this manner, together with the Holy Mysteries and Services of our Lord, we embed Christ into our very flesh which we are ever mortifying in repentant lives... This is simply how we LIVE, my Brother... We have been doing it for 2000 years... We know the Way of Christ... He is our Life...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

I read it as Paul describing the conflict between his mind and his flesh as a believer

And what in Chapters 6 or 7 leading up to the argument would make you believe that? If definitely would mean that Paul TOTALLY goes against all the style of argument he has been continuing through the book of Romans.

So, can an unregenerate person say "I myself serve the law of God"?

Oh....yet again...this is a presupposition. And yes..in his mind..and mind only!..which means that he actually falls short..right? So the Law could not do what Christ did...right?

I say it cannot. If Paul says of the unregenerate that it, "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be,

No...he says:

7For the mind that is set on the flesh is(O) hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law;(P) indeed, it cannot.

This has to do with the Jews who set their mind on the Law...and trying to fulfill it through their flesh. But Paul's point is the Law is fulfilled in Christ, and through the Spirit.

Remember..Paul is making an argument for the necessity of Christ, living in the Spirit...and what the Law is incapable of doing. He is NOT making an argument for Total Depravity. Again, you are taking one verse, out of its original context and intent...then making it suit a particular theology.

Then we ask, can the regenerate, "with the flesh [serve] the law of sin"? This is exactly what Paul explained a verse earlier saying, " I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Paul says, "I," referring to himself and we know that he is not speaking of his former unregenerate state because of the contradiction that would exist as explained above. He is speaking of his current regenerate state by saying, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man."

Ok...first off...Jews loved the law...but Paul is making the point that it can not deliver them...and setting their mind on the Law and its fleshly ordinanaces, they will inevitable fall short, and thus not receive life...again...take away the presupposition that a person can not love the law....rather its that they can not actually fulfill it...THAT is what Paul is saying.

so here is the question...is a believer subject to the law of sin...of is a believer under sin? Lets see what Paul says leading up to Romans 7:

5For(I) if we have been united with him in(J) a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that(K) our old self[a](L) was crucified with him in order that(M) the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

7For(N) one who has died(O) [B]has been set free from sin.

11So you also must consider yourselves(T) dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

13(V) Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but(W) present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

14For(X) sin(Y) will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace

17But(AC) thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the(AD) standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and,(AE) having been set free from sin,(AF) have become slaves of righteousness

20(AJ) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

22But now that you(AN) have been set free from sin and(AO) have become slaves of God,(AP) the fruit you get leads to sanctification and(AQ) its end, eternal life.

So you wanna talk about a contradiction? THAT is a contradiction. Not just one verse pulled out of context and intent. LOOK AT ALL OF ROMANS 6! THAT is what Paul is talking about! He is talking about how unbelievers are FREE FROM SIN!!!!!!!!!! NO LONGER SLAVES TO SIN!!!! OVER AND OVER AND OVER!!! How can you not see this? And I am passionate about this, because it sells short what is promised us as believers.

Do not discount what Christ has already done for you. You are NO LONGER A SLAVE TO SIN....but the man in Romans 7? He is! See:

22For(Z) I delight in the law of God,(AA) in my inner being, 23but I see in my members(AB) another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

And this is what happens when one tries to uphold the Law by the flesh. You wanna fulfill the Law? Well Christ fulfilled it, and so rest in Him, and live by the Spirit! THAT'S how you do it. Stop living by fleshly ordinances, but live by the Spirit.

[rhutchin]

So you wanna talk about a contradiction? THAT is a contradiction. Not just one verse pulled out of context and intent. LOOK AT ALL OF ROMANS 6! THAT is what Paul is talking about! He is talking about how unbelievers are FREE FROM SIN!!!!!!!!!! NO LONGER SLAVES TO SIN!!!! OVER AND OVER AND OVER!!! How can you not see this? And I am passionate about this, because it sells short what is promised us as believers.

Do not discount what Christ has already done for you. You are NO LONGER A SLAVE TO SIN....but the man in Romans 7? He is! See:

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. (Romans 7:22-23)

And this is what happens when one tries to uphold the Law by the flesh. You wanna fulfill the Law? Well Christ fulfilled it, and so rest in Him, and live by the Spirit! THAT'S how you do it. Stop living by fleshly ordinances, but live by the Spirit.

In Romans 6, Paul argues that we no longer need to sin. In Romans 7, Paul addresses the reality that people still sin and often do so when they know better.

If you argue for sinless perfection, then your observations are one way to approach this passage. Once a person is saved, he no longer sins (he has been set free from sin and is dead to sin). Given that perspective, then Chapter 7 can (and must) be viewed as referring to the believer's previous life. Nonetheless, when we get to 7:22-23, we see Paul talking, not of the past life, but of the present reality for believers. You need to work around the verb tenses and make 22-23 refer to the past. You have not done that. Neither have you explained how v 22-25 fit into your argument. This is key because, these verses bring to a conclusion that which was said before. Until you are able to do that, your whole argument means nothing.

If you are not arguing for sinless perfection, then your argument makes no sense to me.

[rhutchin]

***PS - Your comment can be read both ways - I took it as meaning that my walking you through the Scriptures did not help you... You intended it to mean that my NOT walking you through the Scriptures did not help you... eg that by not walking you through I was not helping...
Is THAT it?
See how things can go?
So please forgive me for being thick in the skull...

Yes. You don't help us in this respect: you don't walk us through the Scriptures to make your point.

It happens to all of us.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

If you are not arguing for sinless perfection, then your argument makes no sense to me.

Christians are not called by God to continue in their sinful way of life, but to enter into a life of repentance from sinning, and this means overcoming their sins. Paul refers to it as "running the race set before you..." IF you are IN Christ, you CAN overcome your sins... IF you are NOT in Christ, you CANNOT...

Your argument suffers from the fallacy of the false alternative, where either we are sinners in our sins, or else we are sinlessly perfect...
The Truth is that we are not given the laver of regeneration so as to continue in our sins, but to overcome them, and this we are doing...
The Truth is that "All who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ...", and the doing of the sins of the flesh is over and done...
Yes, we can still fall into ANY sin, but IF we are keeping the commandments of Christ, we will not fall...
And IF we should ever fall, we get up, confess, and repent, and Christ is just to forgive us our sin...

But that just moves the bar from the external sins, which the Law forbade, to the internal sins, which Christ disciples us to overcome...
It is the inner sins that need eradication, for the external sins proceed from the internal ones...
And the arena of struggle is thus hidden from view as the unseen warfare proceeds for those hidden in Christ...
So that the Christian life is marked by unseen struggle, and perceived virtue in prayer and fasting and services and almsgiving...
As Christ said in Revelation, "To those overcoming... I will give..."
It is just that the sins convicting us are not visible to you, you see...
A temptation itself convicts us of our desire to sin, even though we overcome it...
Even though you cannot see the overcoming...

The narrow and straited gate is this:

1Pe_4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh,
arm yourselves likewise with the same mind:
for he that hath suffered in the flesh
hath ceased from sin;

So that your alternative of either sinless perfection or helplessness before temptations is false...
In Christ we struggle and overcome temptations as we "run the race set before us"...
The arena of struggle is ascetic, denying self, and to the death...
Your false alternatives water down the Gospel of our Lord, for:
"The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and...
The forceful are taking it by violence..."
That means askesis...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Yes. You don't help us in this respect: you don't walk us through the Scriptures to make your point.

Aaah.... That is MUCH clearer... Thank-you...

Yet I am the one who DOES INDEED walk you through the Scriptures - Even in the Greek...

And when I do, and show it to you with utter clarity, I suddenly am only hearing echoes of my own voice...

And there is no engagement...

One of the things I do NOT do is "chapter-and-verse" you to death...

I mean, I engage you with Scripture, and you disappear...

And then you complain that I do not walk you through the Scriptures EVER...

But not to worry... 'Tis but a wee cross...

Arsenios

[Phat8594]

In Romans 7, Paul addresses the reality that people still sin and often do so when they know better.

And where do you see Paul transitioning into this argument? Because from I can see, he is addressing the Law, and how it is Holy, yet unable to save people.

If you argue for sinless perfection, then your observations are one way to approach this passage.

RH, must you always live in a world of false dichotomies?

How can a believer be both a slave to sin, and free from sin? THAT is a contradiction! PS, just because one is free from sin, does not mean that people can't or won't sin, but that they now have the power to overcome sin (through Christ). See, the man in Romans 7 just doesn't sin sometimes..but ALL the TIME..LIKE ALWAYS...my question for you is how does the behavior of the man in Romans 7 differ from that of an unbeliever?

You need to work around the verb tenses and make 22-23 refer to the past. You have not done that

Paul is making an argument for what the law is incapable of doing...which at the time is a present reality for many Jews. It was also a reality for Paul at one point in his life. We have done this, but you dont want to take it into consideration, despite the evidence that orthodox Christianity has interpreted Romans 7 this way since the ECFs.

You need to work around the verb tenses and make 22-23 refer to the past.

Nope...context clearly shows Paul is NOT talking about believers...unless he was totally unaware of what he wrote in Chapters 6 and 8.

Neither have you explained how v 22-25 fit into your argument. This is key because, these verses bring to a conclusion that which was said before. Until you are able to do that, your whole argument means nothing

It seems as if you don't even read what I write. Look what Paul says:

22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

See, here is the problem. One can love the law with their mind, but one is utterly powerless to uphold the law perfectly. What do you call someone who proclaims one thing, yet does another? A hypocrite...or we can say a law breaker.

The man in Romans 7 is a Jew who is finding that as much as he loves the law, and as much as he wants to uphold it..he cant...so here he is coming to find out that he needs something more...He needs Jesus. So the law, although it is powerless to impart life, because of our sinful flesh...it still points us to the One who can impart life...Jesus Christ.

If you are not arguing for sinless perfection, then your argument makes no sense to me

Remember....a believer's position has changed relative to sin. They are no longer under sin, so they no longer have to sin. Rather they bear fruit for righteousness, rather than fruit leading to death (as the man in Romans 7 does).