Trump: Immigrants; No Welfare for at Least Five Years

[Mountain Man]

I've read Starlight several times where he's claimed that a country should be able to pick and choose refugees.
He isn't the typical whacko on that point.

He only has a problem when our President issues an executive order to that end.

[Bill the Cat]

I've read Starlight several times where he's claimed that a country should be able to pick and choose refugees.
He isn't the typical whacko on that point.

He's said that only when they agree with his own methodology. That's my point.

[Starlight]

He only has a problem when our President issues an executive order to that end.

I don't have a problem with the idea of trying to keep out terrorists, that seems sensible.
But banning people from a list of countries that terrorists have never come from, and letting people in from all the countries that terrorists have come from, seems dumb.
And then doing it in such a way where you call it a "Muslim ban" so that the courts strike it down for being obviously unconstitutional, is bonus dumb.

My beef is with how dumb, dumb, and dumber, Trump is in the execution of his immigration policies. Another super-dumb one is the idea of "building a wall" to stop the Mexican immigrants, when they mostly fly in on visas and then overstay, and in fact for years now more Mexicans have been leaving the US than coming so it's not even a problem that needs addressing. I don't have any problem with the general idea of "let's tighten up our immigration laws" and I generally agree with that sentiment and think immigration has indeed been too high and open in Western countries in general. It's just that Trump's the dumbest stupidest buffoon ever in how he goes about trying to implement the idea, by banning people that aren't dangerous, predictably losing in court, and wanting to burn trillions of dollars building an unnecessary wall. What he should be doing is an overall reduction in immigration quotas and a general restructuring of the immigration quotas for different countries to favor immigration from countries that are culturally similar to the US. That would actually achieve what he/his base want to achieve without the stupidity and the failure that Trump seems to favor.

[Bill the Cat]

I don't have a problem with the idea of trying to keep out terrorists, that seems sensible.
But banning people from a list of countries that terrorists have never come from, and letting people in from all the countries that terrorists have come from, seems dumb.

So, no terrorists have come from the half dozen nations listed in the travel ban?

And then doing it in such a way where you call it a "Muslim ban" so that the courts strike it down for being obviously unconstitutional, is bonus dumb.

Trump never called it a "Muslim ban" in any official correspondence or order.

My beef is with how dumb, dumb, and dumber, Trump is in the execution of his immigration policies. Another super-dumb one is the idea of "building a wall" to stop the Mexican immigrants, when they mostly fly in on visas and then overstay, and in fact for years now more Mexicans have been leaving the US than coming so it's not even a problem that needs addressing.

Most border crossers come from South American countries. And, as I've told you on more than 1 occasion, the walls work. In the fences at the Tijuana crossing, which I helped build when I was still enlisted, crossings dropped by 90%. So, success MAY sound stupid to you, but reality speaks much louder than your armchair analysis.

I don't have any problem with the general idea of "let's tighten up our immigration laws" and I generally agree with that sentiment and think immigration has indeed been too high and open in Western countries in general. It's just that Trump's the dumbest stupidest buffoon ever in how he goes about trying to implement the idea, by banning people that aren't dangerous, predictably losing in court, and wanting to burn trillions of dollars building an unnecessary wall.

The "ban" was temporary in order to sort out the immigration shortfalls, and was from countries that have produced terrorists that have struck even quite recently.

What he should be doing is an overall reduction in immigration quotas and a general restructuring of the immigration quotas for different countries to favor immigration from countries that are culturally similar to the US. That would actually achieve what he/his base want to achieve without the stupidity and the failure that Trump seems to favor.

Legal immigration is not a big problem, and hasn't been for quite some time. It's illegal immigration.

[demi-conservative]

From link of Seer's:

“We’re thinking about building the wall as a solar wall,” Trump told supporters gathered at the U.S. Cellular Center here. “This way, Mexico will have to pay much less money.”

[Psychic Missile]

What's wrong is that denial of welfare harms people arbitrarily and withholds from people the benefits of the taxes they pay. Concerning the former, if you are an immigrant and the company you work for goes under and you need unemployment to last you through to the next job, being denied unemployment is a major blow to your assimilation for no other reason than bad luck. Concerning the latter, shouldn't someone get the benefits from the taxes they pay if reasonable and possible? There are better ways to save money and/or to qualify immigrants.

[Starlight]

So, no terrorists have come from the half dozen nations listed in the travel ban?

Um, dude, have you not at all been following these discussions? Zero, I repeat zero, terrorist acts in the US have been committed by people from the the half dozen nations in Trump's bizarre travel ban. And of all the terrorist attacks done in the US, Trump banned zero, I repeat, zero, of the countries that they came from.

That's part of the reason the courts have been striking it down, because they basically said "you trying to tell us you're doing this because of terrorism, but you're clearly lying because you've selected entirely the wrong set of countries to ban. We actually think your motive is just to ban random Muslim countries because you're trying to do a 'Muslim ban'."

Trump never called it a "Muslim ban" in any official correspondence or order.

Didn't you hear Sean Spicer announce that Trump's Tweets are "official statements". And Trump said so in rallies often enough, and what he says counts in court.

In the fences at the Tijuana crossing, which I helped build when I was still enlisted, crossings dropped by 90%.

It will have just become known that that crossing was harder to cross at than the others so the people will have redirected to easier crossings. You're kidding yourself if you think it did much to reduce total crossings.

The "ban" was temporary in order to sort out the immigration shortfalls

The "temporary" nature of the ban was one of the dumb things about it. Trump's original claim was that he needed a 'temporary' ban until they could "figure out what's going on". It was with a wink and a nod to the "temporary" part. And sure enough, months into his presidency, we're now past the point where the 'temporary' ban would have expired, and so has Trump "figured out what's going on?" Of course not. He still wants the ban. He still wants that "temporary" ban even though the time period that he himself originally set for it would have elapsed by now. There's been no actual effort on his part to "figure out" anything that's "going on", he just wanted his voters to be happy he was banning brown people / Muslims, that was all there was to it.

Legal immigration is not a big problem, and hasn't been for quite some time. It's illegal immigration.

You're getting yourself confused. Most illegal immigration into the US starts off legal (i.e. the initial entry into the US is done legally on a temporary visa of some kind) and becomes illegal when the person doesn't leave the country within the required timeframe. This is a larger source of illegal immigrants to the US than is people who entered the country illegally in the first place by sneaking in without going through customs. Walls do not stop legal visitors who become permanent immigrants by illegally overstaying, and so the idea of building any amount of walls doesn't address the primary source of illegal immigration to the US.

[Bill the Cat]

Um, dude, have you not at all been following these discussions? Zero, I repeat zero, terrorist acts in the US have been committed by people from the the half dozen nations in Trump's bizarre travel ban. And of all the terrorist attacks done in the US, Trump banned zero, I repeat, zero, of the countries that they came from.

You have to add "in the US" in order for your statement to hold water. Many of the current attacks in Europe are from natives of these 7 countries. That they haven't come here and successfully attacked is immaterial to the fact that they came from those countries.

That's part of the reason the courts have been striking it down, because they basically said "you trying to tell us you're doing this because of terrorism, but you're clearly lying because you've selected entirely the wrong set of countries to ban. We actually think your motive is just to ban random Muslim countries because you're trying to do a 'Muslim ban'."

Nearly every judge that has struck it down was appointed by Obama or Clinton and all have heavily liberal records. They are reading into the temporary ban things that simply aren't in there, and because they are judges, no one has any authority to overturn them outside the SCOTUS.

Didn't you hear Sean Spicer announce that Trump's Tweets are "official statements". And Trump said so in rallies often enough, and what he says counts in court.

It's hearsay, and any competent judge would get that. But those liberal judges with axes to grind aren't competent.

It will have just become known that that crossing was harder to cross at than the others so the people will have redirected to easier crossings. You're kidding yourself if you think it did much to reduce total crossings.

Actually, no. You are wrong. It did reduce total crossings. It also increased the number of illegals who died in the desert crossings where liberal morons in New Mexico refuse to even allow patrols. A full fence will tremendously hinder their ability to cross at "easier" locations.

The "temporary" nature of the ban was one of the dumb things about it.

No it wasn't. It was ideal for an incoming administration who actually wanted to fix immigration.

Trump's original claim was that he needed a 'temporary' ban until they could "figure out what's going on". It was with a wink and a nod to the "temporary" part. And sure enough, months into his presidency, we're now past the point where the 'temporary' ban would have expired, and so has Trump "figured out what's going on?" Of course not.

You have no clue what his staff and he have figured out. And you have no clue why it has been so difficult, which is ironic because it's liberal turds like you who are the cause of the delay.

He still wants the ban. He still wants that "temporary" ban even though the time period that he himself originally set for it would have elapsed by now.

Because you can't fix a plane while it is flying, stupid... How do you not drown in your own cereal?

There's been no actual effort on his part to "figure out" anything that's "going on",

You know absolutely ZIP about what his staff has been doing on immigration, so just shut your pie hole and stop embarrassing yourself further with your ignorant blather.

he just wanted his voters to be happy he was banning brown people / Muslims, that was all there was to it.

No. Just no...

You're getting yourself confused. Most illegal immigration into the US starts off legal (i.e. the initial entry into the US is done legally on a temporary visa of some kind) and becomes illegal when the person doesn't leave the country within the required timeframe.

Thanks to the increase in border patrol, fencing, and technology. Far fewer migrants from Mexico are successfully entering the country illegally than a decade ago because stepped-up border enforcement means*fewer are trying, more are getting caught and more are giving up. But that does not exclude the need for better fencing and more of it. Just that better tracking of visa holders is another part of proper immigration reform.

This is a larger source of illegal immigrants to the US than is people who entered the country illegally in the first place by sneaking in without going through customs. Walls do not stop legal visitors who become permanent immigrants by illegally overstaying, and so the idea of building any amount of walls doesn't address the primary source of illegal immigration to the US.

But it addresses a rather large one nonetheless.

[Starlight]

Many of the current attacks in Europe are from natives of these 7 countries.

False.

5 of the 7 Countries in Trump's ban have ZERO association with any terrorism in Europe.
The two countries on Trump's original list of 7, where attackers have come from are:
Syria: 3 or 4.
Iraq: 2.
The other 5 countries: 0.

Trump's more recent revision of his list, has removed Iraq from it. Thus meaning that of the countries on his list, Syria is the only one where terrorists in Europe have come. He's just got the wrong countries on his list. Out of the 6 countries he wants to ban, zero have been involved in terrorism in the US and only 1 has been involved in attacks in Europe.

The Trump administration is just so incompetent that it can't even put the right countries on the list. And gullible tools like you having blind faith that Trump must know what he's doing is just sad to watch. I support immigration restrictions, but the sheer incompetence of Trump's fumblings are worse than doing nothing at all.

[Darth Executor]

What's wrong is that denial of welfare harms people arbitrarily and withholds from people the benefits of the taxes they pay. Concerning the former, if you are an immigrant and the company you work for goes under and you need unemployment to last you through to the next job, being denied unemployment is a major blow to your assimilation for no other reason than bad luck. Concerning the latter, shouldn't someone get the benefits from the taxes they pay if reasonable and possible? There are better ways to save money and/or to qualify immigrants.

There's no reason to bring the person in at all if they're that vulnerable to job losses.

[Bill the Cat]

False.

5 of the 7 Countries in Trump's ban have ZERO association with any terrorism in Europe.
The two countries on Trump's original list of 7, where attackers have come from are:
Syria: 3 or 4.
Iraq: 2.
The other 5 countries: 0.

Trump's more recent revision of his list, has removed Iraq from it. Thus meaning that of the countries on his list, Syria is the only one where terrorists in Europe have come. He's just got the wrong countries on his list. Out of the 6 countries he wants to ban, zero have been involved in terrorism in the US and only 1 has been involved in attacks in Europe.

The Trump administration is just so incompetent that it can't even put the right countries on the list. And gullible tools like you having blind faith that Trump must know what he's doing is just sad to watch. I support immigration restrictions, but the sheer incompetence of Trump's fumblings are worse than doing nothing at all.

- Anis Amri: trained in an ISIS camp in Libya
- Muhaydin Mire: Somali born
- Saïd Kouachi: trained in Yemen


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.b6f79570dbac
The vast majority of migrants were genuinely fleeing war and poverty. But over the past six months, more than three dozen suspected militants who impersonated migrants have been arrested or died while planning or carrying out acts of terrorism. They include at least seven directly tied to the bloody attacks in Paris and Brussels.

The Islamic State is gloating that they have far more lying in wait.

“We have sent many operatives to Europe with the refugees,” an Islamic State commander said in an interview over an encrypted data service. “Some of our brothers have fulfilled their mission, but others are still waiting to be activated.”

[Starlight]

- Muhaydin Mire: Somali born

This guy is regarded as mentally ill, not a terrorist. He's serving his sentence in a mental hospital, had a history of paranoid psychotic episodes, and didn't actually kill anyone.

- Anis Amri: trained in an ISIS camp in Libya

You've got your wires crossed. This guy was from Tunisia. He'd talked on his phone with some ISIS guys who were in Libya, but hadn't actually been there.

- Saïd Kouachi: trained in Yemen

Born in Paris. Yes he'd visited Yemen. I'll give you half a point for this one.

The Islamic State is gloating that they have far more lying in wait.

“We have sent many operatives to Europe with the refugees,” an Islamic State commander said in an interview over an encrypted data service. “Some of our brothers have fulfilled their mission, but others are still waiting to be activated.”

They're delusional nutters who lie about how powerful they are because it plays into their delusions of grandeur. There's no particular reason to believe anything they say.

[Sparko]

They're delusional nutters who lie about how powerful they are because it plays into their delusions of grandeur. There's no particular reason to believe anything they say.

The citizens of the UK and France might differ with you.