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Was Lazarus the author of the Gospel of John?

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  • #16
    Thank-you both for the advice. (I'll see if I can get it right)
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Witherington is a world class scholar. He's not really the type to make such an obvious error, so rather than assuming that what he said was written in error, it might be wiser to see what he and other NT scholars actually say about the subject. The view that the meal eaten in John 13 was not the Passover meal is defended by a number of NT scholars including C. K. Barrett, RT France, Raymond Brown and others.
    I understand that Witherington is a scholar ... however, it is not possible for the text of John 13:1 -2 to give rise to that conclusion. If there are reasons for assuming it is not, they do not come from the scripture itself.

    1 before the Passover feast, Jesus knew that his time had come to depart from this world to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now loved them to the very end. 2 The evening meal was in progress ...

    Before the Passover feast Jesus knew and did certain things. And during the meal certain things happened.

    How can it be asserted that the meal was not the Passover meal? The text provides no grounds for doing so.

    Before the celebration, he did ... . During the party this and that happened ... who would expect that the party was not part of the previously stated celebration? Even without "And" as a conjunction between the sentences.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Thank-you both for the advice. (I'll see if I can get it right)


      I understand that Witherington is a scholar ... however, it is not possible for the text of John 13:1 -2 to give rise to that conclusion. If there are reasons for assuming it is not, they do not come from the scripture itself.

      1 before the Passover feast, Jesus knew that his time had come to depart from this world to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now loved them to the very end. 2 The evening meal was in progress ...

      Before the Passover feast Jesus knew and did certain things. And during the meal certain things happened.

      How can it be asserted that the meal was not the Passover meal? The text provides no grounds for doing so.

      Before the celebration, he did ... . During the party this and that happened ... who would expect that the party was not part of the previously stated celebration? Even without "And" as a conjunction between the sentences.
      That you disagree with Witherington, and other scholars who make the same argument doesn't mean that Witherington made an error. Witherington is well aware of other interpretations of the text.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        That you disagree with Witherington, and other scholars who make the same argument doesn't mean that Witherington made an error. Witherington is well aware of other interpretations of the text.
        Assessments of correct and incorrect will of course be subjective - regardless of how thoroughly the matter has been investigated by each party.

        I've been looking into his teachings. So far, he seems to be spot on with everything else that I've checked, so I'll definitely be looking at citing him in relevant papers for university.

        But then, I am no more qualified to assess whether he is right than I am to assess whether he is wrong - so perhaps my opinions don't count either way.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Assessments of correct and incorrect will of course be subjective - regardless of how thoroughly the matter has been investigated by each party.
          That doesn't make all assessments equally defensible.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          But then, I am no more qualified to assess whether he is right than I am to assess whether he is wrong - so perhaps my opinions don't count either way.
          They can count for something if you can defend them with good arguments.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
            That doesn't make all assessments equally defensible.


            They can count for something if you can defend them with good arguments.
            Not so much - argument from demonstrable fact will be defeated by argument from authority 3 times out of 4, and by argument from popular personality 9 times out of 10 ... or so it would seem.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Not so much - argument from demonstrable fact will be defeated by argument from authority 3 times out of 4, and by argument from popular personality 9 times out of 10 ... or so it would seem.
              That depends on what you're counting as a defeat. If nothing matters except how many people agree with you, then sure, facts are almost always irrelevant.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Witherington is a world class scholar. He's not really the type to make such an obvious error, so rather than assuming that what he said was written in error, it might be wiser to see what he and other NT scholars actually say about the subject. The view that the meal eaten in John 13 was not the Passover meal is defended by a number of NT scholars including C. K. Barrett, RT France, Raymond Brown and others.
                I respect Witherington's scholarship, but I remain unconvinced by his arguments here. John, as a member of Jesus' innermost circle, is a much better candidate for 'beloved disciple' than someone who does not appear to have traveled with Jesus and is introduced via his relationship with Mary.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I respect Witherington's scholarship, but I remain unconvinced by his arguments here. John, as a member of Jesus' innermost circle, is a much better candidate for 'beloved disciple' than someone who does not appear to have traveled with Jesus and is introduced via his relationship with Mary.
                  I don't really have strong opinions about it one way or the other. I probably lean in the direction of John, but in the end, I don't think it much matters except in maybe determining whether or not tradition got the right name in ascribing the gospel to John. Even then, though, many scholars seem to be of the opinion that a Johannine school wrote the Gospel of John rather than John himself.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Even then, though, many scholars seem to be of the opinion that a Johannine school wrote the Gospel of John rather than John himself.
                    Well, that's a position for which I have rather less respect. Overanalysis is a thing.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                      That depends on what you're counting as a defeat. If nothing matters except how many people agree with you, then sure, facts are almost always irrelevant.
                      When it happens, the debate is lost ... that's all I was saying.

                      But now that you have brought the point up, I am re-considering whether that is all there is to it. When anti-vaxxers gain too much sway, or climate warming deniers, or even what might be called believing falsehoods about mere philosophical matters: the potential for harm is not trivial.

                      Or the modern day morphed-witch-hunters (antifa etc)
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        <snip>

                        Source: Was Lazarus the Beloved Disciple? by Bill Witherington

                        Jn. 13.1 in fact says it was a meal that transpired before the Passover meal.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Dr. Witherington misstates the facts of John 13:1.
                        . . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . .
                        It does not mention any meal.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Kind of a technical point -
                          I assumed that he meant "verse 1 establishes the timing for the meal" and worked from there.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Dr. Witherington misstates the facts of John 13:1.
                            . . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . .
                            It does not mention any meal.
                            John 13 is all about the last supper which is a meal. He was referring to the fact that verse one made it clear it was "before the feast of the passover"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Dr. Witherington misstates the facts of John 13:1.
                              . . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . .
                              It does not mention any meal.
                              He doesn't misstate it. I don't care that you guys disagree with Witherington's view on the subject. Lots of NT scholars also disagree. But let's stop with the silly notion that Witherington said something by mistake, or in error, or whatever. Witherington is far and away too thorough to have simply "misstated" something, or to have committed some sort of basic error like whether or not John's last supper was the Passover meal. If you're seriously interested in his position on the subject, he develops the idea in chapter 14 (A Farewell Dinner) of his work John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel. Again, he's not the only one who holds this view, but so do a number of other prominent NT scholars.

                              For the record, I'm not necessarily in agreement with Witherington, but disagreement with his theory need not imply that Witherington misstated or made a mistake.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                There's a sort of chain of events detailed by John. Starting in the evening The meal, the betrayal, continuing into the night the garden, arrest, trial before the Sanhedrin, continuing into the morning before Pilate, sentence, execution (continuing into the afternoon) and death. The day of his death is stated by John to be ... the day of preparation for the High Sabbath (John 19;31), which had of course started at 6pm the previous afternoon. So Jesus had a meal on the night of the 14th of Nisan, the time specified for the Passover meal ... but it wasn't in fact the Passover meal.
                                I find that thoroughly unlikely.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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