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Was Lazarus the author of the Gospel of John?

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  • #31
    John 13:2,
    . . . And supper being ended, . . .

    Luke 22:20-21,
    . . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . .


    And it all took place that evening (Mark 14:17) (compare Mark 1:32) following the 14th (Mark 14:12) making it that evening of the feast the 15th.
    Last edited by 37818; 06-26-2017, 02:16 PM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      John 13:2,
      . . . And supper being ended, . . .

      Luke 22:20-21,
      . . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . .


      And it all took place that evening (Mark 14:17) (compare Mark 1:32) following the 14th (Mark 14:12) making it that evening of the feast the 15th.
      what's your point? He was saying that the last supper happened before the passover festival. You seem to be trying to stretch a point that isn't there.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        what's your point? He was saying that the last supper happened before the passover festival. You seem to be trying to stretch a point that isn't there.
        No, I am arguing that the last supper was founded on the 15th after the 15th Passover meal. (Mark 14:17-18; Luke 22:20-21). The day prior to that evening was the 14th (Mark 14:12; Exodus 12:6, 18). Exodus 12:8 is the 15th (Numbers 9:12).

        http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passo...-Nissan-14.htm
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          When it happens, the debate is lost ... that's all I was saying.
          You don't lose a war just because you lose a battle. The primary purpose of any debate, as I see it, is not to change anyone's mind. Any debater must of course hope that will happen, but his primary purpose should be just to get his arguments out into plain view so they can be examined by anybody who wants in good faith to understand them, while at the same time exposing whatever weaknesses he perceives in his adversary's arguments.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          But now that you have brought the point up, I am re-considering whether that is all there is to it. When anti-vaxxers gain too much sway, or climate warming deniers, or even what might be called believing falsehoods about mere philosophical matters: the potential for harm is not trivial.
          I think the last election proved that our society has developed a serious problem with its understanding of how critical thinking is supposed to be done, and I'm not talking just about the people who supported Trump.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            No, I am arguing that the last supper was founded on the 15th after the 15th Passover meal. (Mark 14:17-18; Luke 22:20-21). The day prior to that evening was the 14th (Mark 14:12; Exodus 12:6, 18). Exodus 12:8 is the 15th (Numbers 9:12).

            http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passo...-Nissan-14.htm
            And how does the information provided in that article compare with Leviticus?
            23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
            The fourteenth at evening will be when? It could be at the start of the day (between 6pm and sunset), or it could be at the end of the day (between 3pm and 6pm). It can't be later than 6pm, because the date would then be the 15th - no longer the day of preparation before the week-long festival.

            6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days
            and the Passover can't be the 15th, because that is the first day of the week-long festival.

            According to JOHN
            John Crucifixion Timeline jpeg.jpg

            Point G establishes the day as being the day of preparation and prior to the crucifixion. With the definite day being established, it is a simple matter to work backwards through the events in order to find when they happened.
            Last edited by tabibito; 06-27-2017, 10:45 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              And how does the information provided in that article compare with Leviticus?
              23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
              The fourteenth at evening will be when? It could be at the start of the day (between 6pm and sunset), or it could be at the end of the day (between 3pm and 6pm). It can't be later than 6pm, because the date would then be the 15th - no longer the day of preparation before the week-long festival.

              6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days
              and the Passover can't be the 15th, because that is the first day of the week-long festival.

              According to JOHN
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]23039[/ATTACH]

              Point G establishes the day as being the day of preparation and prior to the crucifixion. With the definite day being established, it is a simple matter to work backwards through the events in order to find when they happened.
              Scripture Verse: Leviticus 23:5, Tanakh Online, Chabad.org


              . . . In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, in the afternoon, you shall sacrifice the Passover offering to the Lord. . . .

              © Copyright Original Source


              Leviticus 23:5, John Darby Translation,
              . . .In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the two evenings, is the passover to Jehovah. . . .


              Now you need to address Mark 14:12. What day do you say it was? 14th? The day following that evening (Mark 14:17) would be therefore the 15th regardless whether they ate the passover before or after sundown. Well?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Scripture Verse: Leviticus 23:5, Tanakh Online, Chabad.org


                . . . In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, in the afternoon, you shall sacrifice the Passover offering to the Lord. . . .

                © Copyright Original Source

                In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD:
                The word translated by the King James is "ereb", dusk and the Septuagint translates "ereb" as "esperos" - evening (or literally "esperωn" evenings).
                Leviticus 23:5, John Darby Translation,
                . . .In the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the two evenings, is the passover to Jehovah. . . .
                More properly, going by the Septuagint, "in the midst of the evenings" Which would be "between and including the evenings." That much should be obvious ... the whole day is included in the celebration, not just 20 hours of that day.

                Now you need to address Mark 14:12. What day do you say it was? 14th? The day following that evening (Mark 14:17) would be therefore the 15th regardless whether they ate the passover before or after sundown. Well?
                Do you see the black stripe on the chart, immediately below "DAY OF PRE"? That's the night of the 14th. All of the stripe between the lines marking 6pm is the 14th. ALL of the night of the 14th is during the 14th - next morning is still the 14th. (and incidentally: Where does Mark say "the next day"?

                Darby notes "between the evenings" ... The first evening on the chart is the blue bit just after the first 6pm line until the stripe goes to black (for the night). All of the black bit, and the blue stripe until the point marked "I" is exclusive-between the evenings, and the inclusive-between runs the full distance between the two 6pm lines. From "I" to the 6pm line is the second of the evenings referred to by Darby.
                Last edited by tabibito; 06-28-2017, 03:09 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD:
                  The word translated by the King James is "ereb", dusk and the Septuagint translates "ereb" as "esperos" - evening (or literally "esperωn" evenings).
                  More properly, going by the Septuagint, "in the midst of the evenings" Which would be "between and including the evenings." That much should be obvious ... the whole day is included in the celebration, not just 20 hours of that day.



                  Do you see the black stripe on the chart, immediately below "DAY OF PRE"? That's the night of the 14th. All of the stripe between the lines marking 6pm is the 14th. ALL of the night of the 14th is during the 14th - next morning is still the 14th. (and incidentally: Where does Mark say "the next day"?

                  Darby notes "between the evenings" ... The first evening on the chart is the blue bit just after the first 6pm line until the stripe goes to black (for the night). All of the black bit, and the blue stripe until the point marked "I" is exclusive-between the evenings, and the inclusive-between runs the full distance between the two 6pm lines. From "I" to the 6pm line is the second of the evenings referred to by Darby.
                  So what are you saying? Mark 14:12 is the 13th with the 14th beginning with the following evening Mark 14:17?

                  . . . και τη πρωτη ημερα των αζυμων . . .
                  Scripture Verse: Mark 14:12, NIV, 2011 edition


                  . . . On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Scripture Verse: Mark 14:12, NIV, 2011 edition


                  . . . When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. . . .

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Mark Crucifixion Timeline.jpg

                    John Crucifixion Timeline jpeg.jpg

                    Both charts are now in the same post. The top one is from Mark, the bottom one from John. You can check each with the relevant gospel account, and with each other to determine whether the charts are accurate and in accord with each other.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 06-28-2017, 09:57 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Both charts are now in the same post. The top one is from Mark, the bottom one from John. You can check each with the relevant gospel account, and with each other to determine whether the charts are accurate and in accord with each other.
                      I am guessing I am missing something here, but Mark 14:1 says:
                      14 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away; ...

                      Your top chart says the Unleavened Bread is the day before the passover, so how can they both be two days away?
                      Mark 14:12 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when [d]the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples *said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?” 13 And He *sent two of His disciples and *said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him; 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is My guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”’ 15 And he himself will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; prepare for us there.” 16 The disciples went out and came to the city, and found it just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover.
                      17 When it was evening He *came with the twelve. ...

                      You chart indicates that this all happened in one evening. Did they start sacrificing lambs the night before? I guess that is possible.

                      The bigger issue is that it reads as though verse 17 is following on later, and marks the transition into evening, i.e., the bits before verse 17 were before the evening, which would be the day before. This B should be on a different day to C on the chart.

                      Furthermore, it gives the impression that this is the passover meal they are eating, and if that is the case, then Verse 17 should be moved from C to M. If it is not the passover meal, then the narrative has Jesus making arrangements for the passover meal, then, the night before, prophesying to the disciples that he will get taken away and they will fall away that very night. So he is making these arrangements for the meal, then tells them actually that was a waste of time because none of them will be there to eat it!

                      I appreciate it might read differently in Greek...
                      My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]23066[/ATTACH]

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]23067[/ATTACH]

                        Both charts are now in the same post. The top one is from Mark, the bottom one from John. You can check each with the relevant gospel account, and with each other to determine whether the charts are accurate and in accord with each other.
                        The chart for Mark is confused. And is wrong on the day of Preparation. The day of Preparation is in fact not mentioned in Mark until Mark 15:42. Does not identify the date of Mark 14:12.

                        The chart for John is worse. For one, the whole chart conflates the preparation of the Passover (19:14) with the day of Preparation(v.31). It has John 13:2 being the meal, when in fact it was over. The counterfeit reading says during the supper. Judas Iscariot was at Christ's institution of the meal to remember His death (Luke 22:19-21). Which was instituted after the supper was over (note v.20).

                        What date do you regard Mark 14:12? 13th? 14th? or yes, the 15th? and how and why do you conclude your date? Mark 14:17 marks the following evening making the crucifixion the next day. I hold that 14:12 is the 14th and v.17 marks the beginning of the 15th.

                        We need to identify and note any differences in our understanding of those events.
                        Last edited by 37818; 06-29-2017, 08:26 AM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          For one, the whole chart conflates the preparation of the Passover (19:14) with the day of Preparation(v.31).
                          I am confused. What is the difference?
                          It has John 13:2 being the meal, when in fact it was over.
                          True, but does that change the situation at all? It just means verses 2-30 were a couple of hours later.
                          My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                            I am confused. What is the difference?
                            I do not blame you. There are a number of different views which Christians hold. They all cannot be right. If all the views can be shown explicitly false. Then all the accounts as recorded are not historically tenable. Which would suggest of course, that they may not be true. It comes down to interpreting the information to fit the possible history. Tenable or not.
                            True, but does that change the situation at all? It just means verses 2-30 were a couple of hours later.
                            It does change what one is to understand about the events. Over a span of events some 20+ hours apart between v.2 and v.31. All on the 14th, or the 15th to the first part of the 16th. Depending on how it is understood.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              I do not blame you. ...
                              I meant specifically about this:

                              "For one, the whole chart conflates the preparation of the Passover (19:14) with the day of Preparation(v.31)."

                              Is the the preparation of the Passover not done on the day of Preparation?
                              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                                I meant specifically about this:

                                "For one, the whole chart conflates the preparation of the Passover (19:14) with the day of Preparation(v.31)."

                                Is the the preparation of the Passover not done on the day of Preparation?
                                The preparation of the Passover takes place for 7 days of the feast, see Numbers 28:24. The day of Preparation is the 6th day of every week being the day before the 7th day Sabbath. Many Christian interpreters conflate the preparation of the Passover to mean the 6th day of the week. In modern Greek the Greek for preparation is also the name of the 6th day of the week. Other Christian interprets hold that day must be the 14th. And then they interpret Mark 14:12 to be the 13th based on John's reference being the 14th.
                                Last edited by 37818; 06-29-2017, 02:18 PM.
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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