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Thw Wrong Calendar/Crucifixion Day

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  • Thw Wrong Calendar/Crucifixion Day

    In the other thread, a discussion began on whether the crucifixion was on a Friday, a Thursday, or a Wednesday. I thought I would start a new thread on this topic, and begin with the "original" Biblical calendar.

    The first thing you need to do stop thinking about the Sabbaths falling on a Saturday. You also need to stop looking at modern Jewish calendars that do not follow the method used by the ancient Hebrews. In the Orthodox Jewish calendar, the first of the month was always the first day of the week, and clashes with the Feasts in Leviticus 23 do not happen. And no thought was ever given to the possibility of there being clashes, because they didn't follow or ever intend to follow a continuous 7-day week. So there is only a 1 in 7 chance that the weekly Sabbaths in that year on that month fell on the Saturdays of a Gregorian Calendar. If you want to be an Orthodox Jew today in a country that follows the Gregorian Calendar, you would find yourself regularly having to ask for normal Monday-Friday days off so you can observe the weekly Sabbath.

    The days of the month that are a Sabbath are the 8th, the 15th, the 22nd, and the 29th. The first day of the month is not a Sabbath. Then we have the Festival/Feast days in Leviticus:

    Source: Leviticus 23:3-8 NRSV

    3 Six days shall work be done; but the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no work: it is a sabbath to the Lord throughout your settlements.

    4 These are the appointed festivals of the Lord, the holy convocations, which you shall celebrate at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the Lord, 6 and on the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. 8 For seven days you shall present the Lord’s offerings by fire; on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation: you shall not work at your occupations.

    © Copyright Original Source



    See? The Festival of Unleavened bread is a high Sabbath that happens on the 15th of Nissan. But the 15th of every Jewish month is always a Sabbath anyway. It ends with another Sabbath on the 22nd of Nissan... which again is a Sabbath anyway.

    There was not two Sabbaths, there was not three Sabbaths, there was only one. And there could only have been one. Let's go through the rest of the Festivals:

    Source: Leviticus 23:9-14 NRSV

    9 The Lord spoke to Moses: 10 Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall raise the sheaf before the Lord, that you may find acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall raise it. 12 On the day when you raise the sheaf, you shall offer a lamb a year old, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13 And the grain offering with it shall be two-tenths of an ephah of choice flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire of pleasing odor to the Lord; and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14 You shall eat no bread or parched grain or fresh ears until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.

    © Copyright Original Source



    No extra Sabbath there.

    Source: Leviticus 23:15-22 NRSV

    15 And from the day after the sabbath, from the day on which you bring the sheaf of the elevation offering, you shall count off seven weeks; they shall be complete. 16 You shall count until the day after the seventh sabbath, fifty days; then you shall present an offering of new grain to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your settlements two loaves of bread as an elevation offering, each made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of choice flour, baked with leaven, as first fruits to the Lord. 18 You shall present with the bread seven lambs a year old without blemish, one young bull, and two rams; they shall be a burnt offering to the Lord, along with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire of pleasing odor to the Lord. 19 You shall also offer one male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of well-being. 20 The priest shall raise them with the bread of the first fruits as an elevation offering before the Lord, together with the two lambs; they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21 On that same day you shall make proclamation; you shall hold a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. This is a statute forever in all your settlements throughout your generations.

    22 When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, or gather the gleanings of your harvest; you shall leave them for the poor and for the alien: I am the Lord your God.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Why is there fifty days in seven weeks? Because the first of the next month is not a sabbath, it is the first day of an 8-day week. Also, there are no extra Sabbaths.

    Source: Leviticus 23:23-25 NRSV

    23 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Speak to the people of Israel, saying: In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of complete rest, a holy convocation commemorated with trumpet blasts. 25 You shall not work at your occupations; and you shall present the Lord’s offering by fire.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Ah, a day of rest on the first day of Tishrei! No work to be done. Could it be - no it's just a day of rest, it's not a Sabbath.

    Source: Leviticus 23:26-32 NRSV

    26 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 Now, the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you: you shall deny yourselves and present the Lord’s offering by fire; 28 and you shall do no work during that entire day; for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. 29 For anyone who does not practice self-denial during that entire day shall be cut off from the people. 30 And anyone who does any work during that entire day, such a one I will destroy from the midst of the people. 31 You shall do no work: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of complete rest, and you shall deny yourselves; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.

    © Copyright Original Source



    The Day of Atonement is possibly the best candidate for a Sabbath day that doesn't fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of the month. It is after all specifically described as being observed in the same way as a Sabbath. But note this - it happens on the 10th day of Tishrei. There is no clash with the weekly Sabbath, and there is always one work day before and four after, there is no back-to-back Sabbath days. It is very similar to a Sabbath, but observed slightly differently.

    Source: Leviticus 23:33-43 NRSV

    33 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 34 Speak to the people of Israel, saying: On the fifteenth day of this seventh month, and lasting seven days, there shall be the festival of booths to the Lord. 35 The first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. 36 Seven days you shall present the Lord’s offerings by fire; on the eighth day you shall observe a holy convocation and present the Lord’s offerings by fire; it is a solemn assembly; you shall not work at your occupations.

    37 These are the appointed festivals of the Lord, which you shall celebrate as times of holy convocation, for presenting to the Lord offerings by fire—burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its proper day— 38 apart from the sabbaths of the Lord, and apart from your gifts, and apart from all your votive offerings, and apart from all your freewill offerings, which you give to the Lord.

    39 Now, the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall keep the festival of the Lord, lasting seven days; a complete rest on the first day, and a complete rest on the eighth day. 40 On the first day you shall take the fruit of majestic trees, branches of palm trees, boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 You shall keep it as a festival to the Lord seven days in the year; you shall keep it in the seventh month as a statute forever throughout your generations. 42 You shall live in booths for seven days; all that are citizens in Israel shall live in booths, 43 so that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel live in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

    © Copyright Original Source



    And there we have it, all the rest of the Sabbath days commanded by Jehovah all fall on the weekly Sabbath days.

    So what does all this tell us? It tells that using the original method to calculate their calendar that the 14th of Nissan is always the 6th day of the Hebrew week. It can never be the 5th day or the 4th day, or any other day of the week. But here's the thing, do we know they were using this method to calculate the Jewish calendar in 30AD? No we don't, and the evidence is against it. I can see that this poses at least four different problems for Christians, and that's probably why it's never really addressed.

    The first problem: If they weren't using the Biblical calendar then it means that Jesus was not observing it correctly either.

    The second problem: If they were calculating their calendars the way that we think they were in the Second Temple era, then it means that the days of the week become fluid, and more Sabbath days are introduced. This leaves us with a big problem, if Jesus was crucified on either a "Thursday" or a "Friday" then the first day of the next week should theoretically be a Sabbath day. However the Bible clearly says the women go early in the morning to the tomb on the first day of the week. "Wednesday" is of course possible, but that doesn't explain why the women don't go to the tomb on "Friday", especially given the fact that he was given a burial without the proper rites on the day that he died.

    The third problem: Jesus was buried at the very end of the day on Nissan 14. Nissan 15 was the Sabbath. According to the Bible Jesus is raised sometime in the evening of Nissan 16. That means he was in the grave for one full evening, then one full day, and then half of the evening if that. Yet the Bible says that he would be in the ground as Jonah in the fish for three days and three nights. It seems that Christians insist on counting Nissan 14 - but for most of that day he: ate the Passover meal with his disciples, then he was tried, then whipped, then crucified, and then finally buried - again according to the Bible. I don't see how you can count Nissan 14 as a day he spent "in the grave", given that he spent the vast majority of it doing other things, and only the very last hour at the most in a grave.

    The fourth problem: Thursday and Wednesday crucifixions are just not possible. A Thursday crucifixion causes Nissan 16 to be a Sabbath (marking the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread). And a Wednesday crucifixion can't happen because according to the chronology of the gospels, every day of the week is accounted for starting on Palm Sunday. Read it yourself.

    Sunday - Jesus travels to Jerusalem.
    Monday - the triumphal entry itself and it is late in the day (Mk 11:1-11).
    Tuesday - Jesus creates the disturbance in the Temple and gets violent according to John. He then leaves the city walls (Mk 11:19), probably in fear for his life following the disturbance he created.
    Wednesday - he goes back to Jerusalem, and back to the Temple and (unsurprisingly) he is immediately confronted by the chief priests, scribes, and elders (Mk 11:27-28). Then Jesus starts preaching, during which time some of them go away, and some Pharisees, Herodians, and Sadducees come. At the end of all of this we're told that it was two days before the Passover (Mk 14:1), and he leaves and goes to Bethany. According to the gospels, while he is in Bethany Judas goes to the chief priests and agrees to betray Jesus.
    Thursday - they prepared the Passover Lamb. Jesus remained in Bethany and sent his disciples to Jerusalem to get a lamb.
    Friday - in the evening (the start of the day) he went with the rest of his disciples to Jerusalem and ate the Passover with them ("Last Supper"). Then they went to Gethsemane (probably on their way out of Jerusalem), and then Jesus was arrested and brought before the chief priests. This supposedly all happened in the evening. In the morning he was brought before Pilate tried and sentenced to crucifixion. And the Romans crucified him.

    Right, so the whole week is accounted for. Even if you move the triumphal entry up to Sunday, a Thursday crucifixion is only possible if you're willing to accept that the first day of the following week would have also been a Sabbath. And note that there are no Sabbath days mentioned in any of the gospels in between the triumphal entry and the crucifixion. So to get to a Wednesday crucifixion AND still follow the biblical chronology of that week, you have to move the triumphal entry into Friday of the previous week. But that's not possible either because right after the triumphal entry it says on the following day that they go from Bethany back to Jerusalem and "cleanse the temple", something they would not have been able to do on the Sabbath. That means the you have to move the triumphal entry back to Thursday, then the disturbance in the temple happens on a Friday. But that doesn't work either because the gospels say that on the following day he goes back and preaches in the Temple. So now, the triumphal entry has to be moved back to Wednesday, then Jesus goes and creates a disturbance in Jerusalem on the Thursday, then goes back to preach on the Friday. With me so far? There could be a Sabbath here, but the problem is that on the first day of the next week that creates (the Sunday) it says that "it was two days before the Passover and the festival of Unleavened Bread" (Mk 14:1). That would then put the crucifixion onto a Tuesday. There is just no way to get to a Wednesday crucifixion without accepting all the problems that it creates.

    Now, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't crucified on a Wednesday. I don't think the Bible is particularly accurate about the details of Jesus' death. However, even I have a problem believing that the triumphal entry did not happen in the same week as the crucifixion, and I don't believe that a day earlier than Thursday is possible. I don't think Jesus actually died on the same day as his crucifixion, because as mentioned in the other thread I don't think there were any disciples there to witness it. They fled in fear for their own lives.

    And some of the events just can't be compressed into single days, for example there is no way that Jesus created the disturbance at the temple and then went back and preached on the same day. Jesus was obviously afraid for his life, and that's why he didn't go to back to the temple to select a lamb himself, and instead waited it out in Bethany until he could sneak his way back into Jerusalem at night. Then after he ate the Passover meal he left Jerusalem as quickly as he could. On his way out of Jerusalem he stopped and prayed to his God that he would not be delivered into the hands of the authorities. Those are not the actions of a man who expects or wishes to be a martyr!!

    I'll leave you with one final problem: If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, then the Sunday should also have been a Sabbath marking the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And that's how it works on a modern Jewish calendar, whenever Nissan 15 falls on a Saturday, Nissan 16 is a Sabbath day too. The real problem here is that it's guesswork as to exactly how their calendar worked in the first century, there are no extant records but it appears that they calculated the calendar for the whole year, rather than followed the lunar cycle.

  • #2
    Ah, no. There are the 7th day Sabbaths. And not every Jewish month has a fixed date sabbath.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Ah, no. There are the 7th day Sabbaths. And not every Jewish month has a fixed date sabbath.
      Correct. Every seventh day was a Sabbath, as Aractus quoted:
      Originally posted by Lev. 23:3
      3 Six days shall work be done; but the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no work: it is a sabbath to the Lord throughout your settlements.
      Since the solar cycle is not an exact multiple of 7, the new moons and festivals will drift in relation to the day of the week. One time out of 7 they will fall on a Saturday, and 6 times out of 7 they will not.
      "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Aractus View Post
        The days of the month that are a Sabbath are the 8th, the 15th, the 22nd, and the 29th. The first day of the month is not a Sabbath.
        Where are you getting this idea? The rest of your post seems rather dependent on it.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post

          Since the solar cycle is not an exact multiple of 7, the new moons and festivals will drift in relation to the day of the week. One time out of 7 they will fall on a Saturday, and 6 times out of 7 they will not.
          Because of the Day of Atonement being sabbath on the 10th of the month, if a new moon fell on the 2nd, 4th or 6th day of the week that month would start the next day. That also causes the 15th of Nisan not to fall on certain days.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Where are you getting this idea? The rest of your post seems rather dependent on it.
            That's easily demonstrated. The Siege of Jericho for example begins on the first day of a new month. It couldn't have done so if the day was a Sabbath. Of course there wasn't a historical Siege of Jericho, but it shows that the author of Joshua expected that his readers did not consider that day a Sabbath. It's not a contradiction because it's a special day at the beginning of a new week - remember only the last day of the Hebrew week was a Sabbath. Thus it began an 8-day week starting with "Moon Day", and then normal 7-day weeks followed for the remainder of the month. It wouldn't make sense to do it the other way because then you're making the first day of the week a Sabbath, but the ancient Hebrew understanding was that it was the last day of the week that was a Sabbath. Regarding "six days you shall work and on the 7th you shall rest" I would say that they probably interpreted that to mean "you are to work every day of the week except for the last day which is a Sabbath". Hence if they have an 8-day week (or longer) it's only the last day that is the Sabbath. Hebrew was a very young and primitive language at the time the Pentateuch was written, thus they probably didn't have a distinct word for "week", or if they did the author just didn't know to use it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aractus View Post
              Regarding "six days you shall work and on the 7th you shall rest" I would say that they probably interpreted that to mean "you are to work every day of the week except for the last day which is a Sabbath". Hence if they have an 8-day week (or longer) it's only the last day that is the Sabbath. Hebrew was a very young and primitive language at the time the Pentateuch was written, thus they probably didn't have a distinct word for "week", or if they did the author just didn't know to use it.
              Do you have any solid evidence (biblical, historical, or other) that the Hebrews ever had weeks which were NOT seven days in length? This seems pretty basic.
              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                In the other thread, a discussion began on whether the crucifixion was on a Friday, a Thursday, or a Wednesday. I thought I would start a new thread on this topic, and begin with the "original" Biblical calendar.

                The first thing you need to do stop thinking about the Sabbaths falling on a Saturday. You also need to stop looking at modern Jewish calendars that do not follow the method used by the ancient Hebrews. In the Orthodox Jewish calendar, the first of the month was always the first day of the week, and clashes with the Feasts in Leviticus 23 do not happen. And no thought was ever given to the possibility of there being clashes, because they didn't follow or ever intend to follow a continuous 7-day week. So there is only a 1 in 7 chance that the weekly Sabbaths in that year on that month fell on the Saturdays of a Gregorian Calendar. If you want to be an Orthodox Jew today in a country that follows the Gregorian Calendar, you would find yourself regularly having to ask for normal Monday-Friday days off so you can observe the weekly Sabbath.

                The days of the month that are a Sabbath are the 8th, the 15th, the 22nd, and the 29th. The first day of the month is not a Sabbath. Then we have the Festival/Feast days in Leviticus:

                Source: Leviticus 23:3-8 NRSV

                3 Six days shall work be done; but the seventh day is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no work: it is a sabbath to the Lord throughout your settlements.

                4 These are the appointed festivals of the Lord, the holy convocations, which you shall celebrate at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, there shall be a passover offering to the Lord, 6 and on the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of unleavened bread to the Lord; seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. 8 For seven days you shall present the Lord’s offerings by fire; on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation: you shall not work at your occupations.

                © Copyright Original Source



                See? The Festival of Unleavened bread is a high Sabbath that happens on the 15th of Nissan. But the 15th of every Jewish month is always a Sabbath anyway. It ends with another Sabbath on the 22nd of Nissan... which again is a Sabbath anyway.

                There was not two Sabbaths, there was not three Sabbaths, there was only one. And there could only have been one. Let's go through the rest of the Festivals:

                Source: Leviticus 23:9-14 NRSV

                9 The Lord spoke to Moses: 10 Speak to the people of Israel and say to them: When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall raise the sheaf before the Lord, that you may find acceptance; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall raise it. 12 On the day when you raise the sheaf, you shall offer a lamb a year old, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the Lord. 13 And the grain offering with it shall be two-tenths of an ephah of choice flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire of pleasing odor to the Lord; and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14 You shall eat no bread or parched grain or fresh ears until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.

                © Copyright Original Source



                No extra Sabbath there.

                Source: Leviticus 23:15-22 NRSV

                15 And from the day after the sabbath, from the day on which you bring the sheaf of the elevation offering, you shall count off seven weeks; they shall be complete. 16 You shall count until the day after the seventh sabbath, fifty days; then you shall present an offering of new grain to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your settlements two loaves of bread as an elevation offering, each made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of choice flour, baked with leaven, as first fruits to the Lord. 18 You shall present with the bread seven lambs a year old without blemish, one young bull, and two rams; they shall be a burnt offering to the Lord, along with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering by fire of pleasing odor to the Lord. 19 You shall also offer one male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of well-being. 20 The priest shall raise them with the bread of the first fruits as an elevation offering before the Lord, together with the two lambs; they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest. 21 On that same day you shall make proclamation; you shall hold a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. This is a statute forever in all your settlements throughout your generations.

                22 When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, or gather the gleanings of your harvest; you shall leave them for the poor and for the alien: I am the Lord your God.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Why is there fifty days in seven weeks? Because the first of the next month is not a sabbath, it is the first day of an 8-day week. Also, there are no extra Sabbaths.

                Source: Leviticus 23:23-25 NRSV

                23 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 24 Speak to the people of Israel, saying: In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of complete rest, a holy convocation commemorated with trumpet blasts. 25 You shall not work at your occupations; and you shall present the Lord’s offering by fire.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Ah, a day of rest on the first day of Tishrei! No work to be done. Could it be - no it's just a day of rest, it's not a Sabbath.

                Source: Leviticus 23:26-32 NRSV

                26 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 Now, the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you: you shall deny yourselves and present the Lord’s offering by fire; 28 and you shall do no work during that entire day; for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the Lord your God. 29 For anyone who does not practice self-denial during that entire day shall be cut off from the people. 30 And anyone who does any work during that entire day, such a one I will destroy from the midst of the people. 31 You shall do no work: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements. 32 It shall be to you a sabbath of complete rest, and you shall deny yourselves; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.

                © Copyright Original Source



                The Day of Atonement is possibly the best candidate for a Sabbath day that doesn't fall on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of the month. It is after all specifically described as being observed in the same way as a Sabbath. But note this - it happens on the 10th day of Tishrei. There is no clash with the weekly Sabbath, and there is always one work day before and four after, there is no back-to-back Sabbath days. It is very similar to a Sabbath, but observed slightly differently.

                Source: Leviticus 23:33-43 NRSV

                33 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 34 Speak to the people of Israel, saying: On the fifteenth day of this seventh month, and lasting seven days, there shall be the festival of booths to the Lord. 35 The first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall not work at your occupations. 36 Seven days you shall present the Lord’s offerings by fire; on the eighth day you shall observe a holy convocation and present the Lord’s offerings by fire; it is a solemn assembly; you shall not work at your occupations.

                37 These are the appointed festivals of the Lord, which you shall celebrate as times of holy convocation, for presenting to the Lord offerings by fire—burnt offerings and grain offerings, sacrifices and drink offerings, each on its proper day— 38 apart from the sabbaths of the Lord, and apart from your gifts, and apart from all your votive offerings, and apart from all your freewill offerings, which you give to the Lord.

                39 Now, the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the produce of the land, you shall keep the festival of the Lord, lasting seven days; a complete rest on the first day, and a complete rest on the eighth day. 40 On the first day you shall take the fruit of majestic trees, branches of palm trees, boughs of leafy trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 You shall keep it as a festival to the Lord seven days in the year; you shall keep it in the seventh month as a statute forever throughout your generations. 42 You shall live in booths for seven days; all that are citizens in Israel shall live in booths, 43 so that your generations may know that I made the people of Israel live in booths when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

                © Copyright Original Source



                And there we have it, all the rest of the Sabbath days commanded by Jehovah all fall on the weekly Sabbath days.

                So what does all this tell us? It tells that using the original method to calculate their calendar that the 14th of Nissan is always the 6th day of the Hebrew week. It can never be the 5th day or the 4th day, or any other day of the week. But here's the thing, do we know they were using this method to calculate the Jewish calendar in 30AD? No we don't, and the evidence is against it. I can see that this poses at least four different problems for Christians, and that's probably why it's never really addressed.

                The first problem: If they weren't using the Biblical calendar then it means that Jesus was not observing it correctly either.

                The second problem: If they were calculating their calendars the way that we think they were in the Second Temple era, then it means that the days of the week become fluid, and more Sabbath days are introduced. This leaves us with a big problem, if Jesus was crucified on either a "Thursday" or a "Friday" then the first day of the next week should theoretically be a Sabbath day. However the Bible clearly says the women go early in the morning to the tomb on the first day of the week. "Wednesday" is of course possible, but that doesn't explain why the women don't go to the tomb on "Friday", especially given the fact that he was given a burial without the proper rites on the day that he died.

                The third problem: Jesus was buried at the very end of the day on Nissan 14. Nissan 15 was the Sabbath. According to the Bible Jesus is raised sometime in the evening of Nissan 16. That means he was in the grave for one full evening, then one full day, and then half of the evening if that. Yet the Bible says that he would be in the ground as Jonah in the fish for three days and three nights. It seems that Christians insist on counting Nissan 14 - but for most of that day he: ate the Passover meal with his disciples, then he was tried, then whipped, then crucified, and then finally buried - again according to the Bible. I don't see how you can count Nissan 14 as a day he spent "in the grave", given that he spent the vast majority of it doing other things, and only the very last hour at the most in a grave.

                The fourth problem: Thursday and Wednesday crucifixions are just not possible. A Thursday crucifixion causes Nissan 16 to be a Sabbath (marking the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread). And a Wednesday crucifixion can't happen because according to the chronology of the gospels, every day of the week is accounted for starting on Palm Sunday. Read it yourself.

                Sunday - Jesus travels to Jerusalem.
                Monday - the triumphal entry itself and it is late in the day (Mk 11:1-11).
                Tuesday - Jesus creates the disturbance in the Temple and gets violent according to John. He then leaves the city walls (Mk 11:19), probably in fear for his life following the disturbance he created.
                Wednesday - he goes back to Jerusalem, and back to the Temple and (unsurprisingly) he is immediately confronted by the chief priests, scribes, and elders (Mk 11:27-28). Then Jesus starts preaching, during which time some of them go away, and some Pharisees, Herodians, and Sadducees come. At the end of all of this we're told that it was two days before the Passover (Mk 14:1), and he leaves and goes to Bethany. According to the gospels, while he is in Bethany Judas goes to the chief priests and agrees to betray Jesus.
                Thursday - they prepared the Passover Lamb. Jesus remained in Bethany and sent his disciples to Jerusalem to get a lamb.
                Friday - in the evening (the start of the day) he went with the rest of his disciples to Jerusalem and ate the Passover with them ("Last Supper"). Then they went to Gethsemane (probably on their way out of Jerusalem), and then Jesus was arrested and brought before the chief priests. This supposedly all happened in the evening. In the morning he was brought before Pilate tried and sentenced to crucifixion. And the Romans crucified him.

                Right, so the whole week is accounted for. Even if you move the triumphal entry up to Sunday, a Thursday crucifixion is only possible if you're willing to accept that the first day of the following week would have also been a Sabbath. And note that there are no Sabbath days mentioned in any of the gospels in between the triumphal entry and the crucifixion. So to get to a Wednesday crucifixion AND still follow the biblical chronology of that week, you have to move the triumphal entry into Friday of the previous week. But that's not possible either because right after the triumphal entry it says on the following day that they go from Bethany back to Jerusalem and "cleanse the temple", something they would not have been able to do on the Sabbath. That means the you have to move the triumphal entry back to Thursday, then the disturbance in the temple happens on a Friday. But that doesn't work either because the gospels say that on the following day he goes back and preaches in the Temple. So now, the triumphal entry has to be moved back to Wednesday, then Jesus goes and creates a disturbance in Jerusalem on the Thursday, then goes back to preach on the Friday. With me so far? There could be a Sabbath here, but the problem is that on the first day of the next week that creates (the Sunday) it says that "it was two days before the Passover and the festival of Unleavened Bread" (Mk 14:1). That would then put the crucifixion onto a Tuesday. There is just no way to get to a Wednesday crucifixion without accepting all the problems that it creates.

                Now, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't crucified on a Wednesday. I don't think the Bible is particularly accurate about the details of Jesus' death. However, even I have a problem believing that the triumphal entry did not happen in the same week as the crucifixion, and I don't believe that a day earlier than Thursday is possible. I don't think Jesus actually died on the same day as his crucifixion, because as mentioned in the other thread I don't think there were any disciples there to witness it. They fled in fear for their own lives.

                And some of the events just can't be compressed into single days, for example there is no way that Jesus created the disturbance at the temple and then went back and preached on the same day. Jesus was obviously afraid for his life, and that's why he didn't go to back to the temple to select a lamb himself, and instead waited it out in Bethany until he could sneak his way back into Jerusalem at night. Then after he ate the Passover meal he left Jerusalem as quickly as he could. On his way out of Jerusalem he stopped and prayed to his God that he would not be delivered into the hands of the authorities. Those are not the actions of a man who expects or wishes to be a martyr!!

                I'll leave you with one final problem: If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, then the Sunday should also have been a Sabbath marking the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And that's how it works on a modern Jewish calendar, whenever Nissan 15 falls on a Saturday, Nissan 16 is a Sabbath day too. The real problem here is that it's guesswork as to exactly how their calendar worked in the first century, there are no extant records but it appears that they calculated the calendar for the whole year, rather than followed the lunar cycle.
                Is there some reason why believers should be concerned about what the correct day of the crucifixion was? I mean its enough for them to be concerned about whether or not there even was a crucifixion, never mind having to concern themselves about whether or not the day was correctly depicted.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Is there some reason why believers should be concerned about what the correct day of the crucifixion was? I mean its enough for them to be concerned about whether or not there even was a crucifixion, never mind having to concern themselves about whether or not the day was correctly depicted.

                  I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who think there never was a crucifixion are on the other side of the fence.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As previously cited on another thread: there is a Sabbath on the first and again on the tenth of the same month.
                    Leviticus 23:24 In the seventh month, in the first [day] of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work [therein]: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
                    26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement ... 32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest,

                    The Festival of Unleavened bread is a high Sabbath that happens on the 15th of Nissan. But the 15th of every Jewish month is always a Sabbath anyway.
                    Hebrew months were set by the occurrence of the new moon - When the new moon was observed, the Sanhedrin declared the day to be the first of the month. That gives a month of 29 or 30 days, so the first won't fall on the same day every month: As pointed out by KBertsche and 37818.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Is there some reason why believers should be concerned about what the correct day of the crucifixion was? I mean its enough for them to be concerned about whether or not there even was a crucifixion, never mind having to concern themselves about whether or not the day was correctly depicted.
                      It is not particularly a concern until people make up stories that the gospel records are in conflict about the day of Jesus' death. In dealing with that nonsense, it becomes an unavoidably relevant issue.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who think there never was a crucifixion are on the other side of the fence.
                        Nah, I doubt it, people like myself who are on this side of the fence don't care much about the reliability of the day Jesus is said to have been crucified. It is written as a myth anyway, so its only the message thats really important. Jesus is said to have been crucified by the state, by the culture, crucified in a place called golgotha, i.e. in the place of the skull, a crown of thorns was pounded into his head, they murdered the authentic self, but that genuine self rose again to see the heaven of his birth - "in such as these is the kingdom of heaven." That story is representative of a psychological phase of life, a phase of life that we all go through, a phase that some of us recover from, and one that many of us never do. That story correlates with the myth of Dadylus, who, on orders of the King, built the labrythe, a prison, and then became imprisoned in it himself, but, because he aided in its contruction he was able to find his way out. Whether Jesus was crucified or not, the story regarding the event is a myth. Its psychological. " In my opinion that is!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aractus View Post
                          That's easily demonstrated. The Siege of Jericho for example begins on the first day of a new month. It couldn't have done so if the day was a Sabbath. Of course there wasn't a historical Siege of Jericho, but it shows that the author of Joshua expected that his readers did not consider that day a Sabbath. It's not a contradiction because it's a special day at the beginning of a new week - remember only the last day of the Hebrew week was a Sabbath. Thus it began an 8-day week starting with "Moon Day", and then normal 7-day weeks followed for the remainder of the month. It wouldn't make sense to do it the other way because then you're making the first day of the week a Sabbath, but the ancient Hebrew understanding was that it was the last day of the week that was a Sabbath. Regarding "six days you shall work and on the 7th you shall rest" I would say that they probably interpreted that to mean "you are to work every day of the week except for the last day which is a Sabbath". Hence if they have an 8-day week (or longer) it's only the last day that is the Sabbath. Hebrew was a very young and primitive language at the time the Pentateuch was written, thus they probably didn't have a distinct word for "week", or if they did the author just didn't know to use it.
                          Here in America, "demonstrate" does not mean "speculate further. Now you're seemingly snatching an 8-day week out of thin air.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Here in America, "demonstrate" does not mean "speculate further. Now you're seemingly snatching an 8-day week out of thin air.
                            seemingly? Well, maybe: the ROMANS had an 8 day week.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              seemingly? Well, maybe: the ROMANS had an 8 day week.
                              Did they? When, and where did you get this information?

                              Of course, it would seem to be entirely beside the point, when we're discussing Jews, not Romans.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

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