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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Becoming the Right Person vs. Doing Right for Right Reasons

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Charles View Post
    Very fair point to make. I am agnostic but that does not mean that I find all Gods equally likely to exist. I do not find it likely at all that the God seer points to exists, nor do I find it likely at all that Thor or Allah exist. That is not to say you can rule out the idea that there could be a God who is way beyond the grasp of our reasoning and logic and our senses. That is a question we simply cannot answer.
    And I suspect that you would reject my view of God based on moral grounds - correct? But since I am a Christian and my moral view of God comes from the teachings of Christ, His example and the New Testament in general. I would which of those teaching you would disagree with? The golden rule, to love our fellow man, to forgive our fellow man? Sexual Chasity outside of marriage? Admonishments to be honest and truthful? Not to be greedy? Not to steal? Go the extra mile to make peace with your neighbor? To help the poor? To be self-controlled?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      And I suspect that you would reject my view of God based on moral grounds - correct? But since I am a Christian and my moral view of God comes from the teachings of Christ, His example and the New Testament in general. I would which of those teaching you would disagree with? The golden rule, to love our fellow man, to forgive our fellow man? Sexual Chasity outside of marriage? Admonishments to be honest and truthful? Not to be greedy? Not to steal? Go the extra mile to make peace with your neighbor? To help the poor? To be self-controlled?
      Or eternal punishment in hell? Or the unworthy description of homosexuals?

      I would not reject it solely on moral grounds, but it would be a significant part of it.
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Really, have you ever read Miracles? His arguments are not weak.
        No, I read Mere Christianity.
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          Or eternal punishment in hell? Or the unworthy description of homosexuals?
          See, you would say that God did not have the right to define human sexuality, to create human sexuality for a particular end. BTW - not all Christians believe that hell is eternal, as eternal conscious torment, my position is, and has been for 27 years, Conditional Immortality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

          I didn't take that position for emotional reasons or from my own personal ideas of fairness but I found that the idea of eternal conscious torment was surprisingly weak in Scripture.

          I would not reject it solely on moral grounds, but it would be a significant part of it.
          What else?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Charles View Post
            No, I read Mere Christianity.
            There is not a lot wrong with Mere, but if you want a more in depth look at his argument from reason I would suggest "Miracles."
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              There is not a lot wrong with Mere, but if you want a more in depth look at his argument from reason I would suggest "Miracles."
              Thanks for the suggestion. Currently I do not have much time for reading (unfortunately). So I will probably not go for Lewis, unless you can provide very good reason. Then, perhaps, I would consider.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                Thanks for the suggestion. Currently I do not have much time for reading (unfortunately). So I will probably not go for Lewis, unless you can provide very good reason. Then, perhaps, I would consider.
                Well you could start here and see if you think the argument has any merit, I of course think it does: http://www.lewissociety.org/reason.php
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  What else?
                  I hardly know where to start, because I think so many reasons exist, and it would take a lot of words to describe it in a meaningful matter. But the fact that the Bible needs constant reinterpretation, that one reads Genesis differently after science has proven it wrong, that those who would stick to biblical claims have so often caused tremendous harm to others and to science only in order to humiliate themselves. That the Old Testament has is pro slavery, killing of homosexuals and other absurdities. That one gets the feeling of something rather antropromorph going on. That it seems to have no answer to the complex questions of modern day medicine, ethical problems and so on. I could go on for very long, this is a very short description of SOME of the ingredients.
                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    I hardly know where to start, because I think so many reasons exist, and it would take a lot of words to describe it in a meaningful matter. But the fact that the Bible needs constant reinterpretation, that one reads Genesis differently after science has proven it wrong, that those who would stick to biblical claims have so often caused tremendous harm to others and to science only in order to humiliate themselves. That the Old Testament has is pro slavery, killing of homosexuals and other absurdities. That one gets the feeling of something rather antropromorph going on. That it seems to have no answer to the complex questions of modern day medicine, ethical problems and so on. I could go on for very long, this is a very short description of SOME of the ingredients.
                    Well first I don't have a problem with some reinterpretation, for instance Scripture speaks of God gathering the elect from the four corners of the earth - some Bishops thought that meant that the earth was flat. But the text was not necessarily giving a science lesson. Second, the bible never actually makes a moral judgement on slavery, it allows it, but as you know it was a wide spread institution then and pretty much world wide. But neither the homosexual thing or the slavery thing are absurdities, they violate no law of logic. You have a personal moral objection to them, that is fine. But that objection, I believe, is based largely on the cultural mores you were raised with - and you might have had very different thoughts on these if you were raised in a different time and place.
                    Last edited by seer; 06-26-2017, 10:49 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Really, have you ever read Miracles? His arguments are not weak.
                      I believe in my teenage years I read every single one of Lewis' books. I do recall reading Miracles, but I cannot remember the individual arguments he made in it.

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      And I suspect that you would reject my view of God based on moral grounds - correct? But since I am a Christian and my moral view of God comes from the teachings of Christ, His example and the New Testament in general. I would which of those teaching you would disagree with? The golden rule, to love our fellow man, to forgive our fellow man? Sexual Chasity outside of marriage? Admonishments to be honest and truthful? Not to be greedy? Not to steal? Go the extra mile to make peace with your neighbor? To help the poor? To be self-controlled?
                      Moral issues the NT is morally wrong on:
                      Slavery, homosexuality, divorce, the subordination of women, marital rape, eternal punishment, obedience to authoritarian governments.

                      Moral issues the NT is a bit unclear about:
                      Non-violence, polygamy, sex before marriage, racial discrimination (as evidenced by the long history of racial discrimination in the Christian countries of USA and South Africa), interracial marriage

                      Moral issues the NT fails to speak to:
                      Torture, genocide, war crimes, human rights, animal rights, women's rights, abortion, contraceptives.

                      The NT does not really give substantially better moral teachings than the average random society in human history. You ask if we object to 'the golden rule', but you realize that the golden rule is famous for being found in a large number of different societies right? Imagine you are one of the elders in a (non-Christian) society and you have a meeting with the other elders to discuss "what laws should we have to make our society prosper?", you are obviously all going to agree that having people murdering each other left, right, and center is counterproductive to social peace, and are likewise going to agree that rampant theft is going to pose a similar problem to general social harmony, and so are obviously going to outlaw murder and theft, and it doesn't take having a bible to do that. That is, in fact, roughly the method by which our modern societies work: Through the democratic process we create the laws that we together would like to see enacted and think would make our society prosper, and it doesn't take a bible to do that.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Well I'm going to reincarnate in a new body with no memories of my previous life.
                        Unfortunately, karma will kick in, and you will end up with a family with your current beliefs, and they will stomp you to death at the age of 18 months. Then you'll come back as a Tweb moderator!



                        ETA: Couldn't stand it that I typed "believes" instead of "beliefs". (Didn't notice it til Rogue quote me)
                        Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-26-2017, 06:14 PM.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Unfortunately, karma will kick in, and you will end up with a family with your current believes, and they will stomp you to death at the age of 18 months. Then you'll come back as a Tweb moderator!
                          That's just plain vicious. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That's just plain vicious. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
                            Yeah, I hang my head in shame for even suggesting it, even though it IS StarLight.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              And I suspect that you would reject my view of God based on moral grounds - correct? But since I am a Christian and my moral view of God comes from the teachings of Christ, His example and the New Testament in general. I would which of those teaching you would disagree with? The golden rule, to love our fellow man, to forgive our fellow man? Sexual Chasity outside of marriage? Admonishments to be honest and truthful? Not to be greedy? Not to steal? Go the extra mile to make peace with your neighbor? To help the poor? To be self-controlled?
                              The problem is that all the “teachings” you mention have been interpreted differently at different times. This suggests that they have been adapted to conform to the social mores of the day, which makes them human initiatives rather than divine injunctions. BTW: The Golden Rule is not unique to Jesus, it’s found in virtually every culture throughout history and encapsulate the evolved reciprocal nature of humans.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                [...] But neither the homosexual thing or the slavery thing are absurdities, they violate no law of logic. You have a personal moral objection to them, that is fine. But that objection, I believe, is based largely on the cultural mores you were raised with - and you might have had very different thoughts on these if you were raised in a different time and place.
                                And you might have had very different thoughts on God if you were raised in a different time and place. After all it is only your personal view on God.

                                But it is interesting to see you so openly declaring your view that slavery is not an absurdity since (in your opinion) it violates no law of logic. And the same, it seems, goes for the humiliating descriptions of homosexuals. If your religion was founded in another period, you might have had very different thought on this.

                                My objections to these things are not based on my personal interest or my particular culture. I found these these to be morally wrong, lacking any moral justification, despite the fact that I grew up among people making exactly the claims that you do.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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